Sijun Forums :: View topic - Need help on a �Very unhappy look�� ok pissed off

Snakebyte · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:40 am

Iv never drawn a face like this before so I may be a little off. The Idea here is that she is kinda �hissing� at you showing her fangs. On each side of her nose are tears not pimples Smile

Also, this is just a small section of the overall picture and it�s a one day sketch. It was done on a laptop so it may be dark or well, hell I cant tell on a laptop�

I think she could be a little �pissed�er than she is, right now I get the impression she is only half heartedly trying to scare you. I think the key is in the nose but I�m not too sure.
_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com

fukifino · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:30 am

Hmm...this is more of an open mouth than a hiss...or maybe about half way in between..I don't think she's showing enough of her teeth. The expression you're going for tends to pull the lips back exposing more of both sets of teeth, but you're especially too much covered on the bottom set.

Go into your bathroom and try to get the expression you want on yourself in the mirror and use that to help you figure out what changes occur in the face.

(I actually may be on crack on the first part of my suggestion, but the second part will probably help you either way. Wink

)

*edit*

I didn't see what you wrote after the picture. And yes, I think you're right, her nose would be a bit more crinkled, I believe. Again, checking this in your mirror should set you on the right path...also, if you want her more angry, consider some changes to the brow region also, especially between the eyes. That area usually bunches together in an expression filled with anger.

Light · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:36 am

Snake,

You might want to read my essays -- if you havent already. You can find then over in the discussions under visualization.

Also, I do know the face/head very good. I just can't draw that well YET. LOL. If i had the TECHNICAL skills of Hogarth or loomis or Poser then I'd be set!!

You need to study the muscles of the face if you haven't already. There are O ring muscles around the mouth, and eyes. There are corrugator???? muscles around the top of the head. So you need to think of the muscles here.

The nose does not change position in any facial expression. However, the nostrils can flair, and skin creases can be created.

Now, if I read right you want her to appear angry or sneering or some combination.

Her eyebrows are raised. This is the look of surpirse. They should be down turned if she is angry.

Her chin is dropped. This is like a B-movie -- overdone.

Suggestions:

Down turn her eyebrows.
For hissing/sneering dont move her jaw but move her mouth. Skewing you should PULL one side up more then another.
Flair the nostrils and crease the skin around the nose. But, dont over do this...
Make the eyes squint more....

------

This is a good drawing. Nice job.

Snakebyte · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

Let me clarify a little on the sneering/hissing thing, that was a bad description on my part. I�m seeing it in several ways but the expression that would best fit the overall mood and fit what she is doing would be an expression of eroticism, someone who looks angry but inviting, someone who is thoroughly enjoying the sinful acts that turn her on.
To give you an idea of the overall picture the Title will be �Blood Orgy�, she will be the only figure in the scene (For now).

This will be a Halloween picture.

Fukifino, Light, I will take your advice and look in the mirror and at some anat books.

The facial pose may be B-movie�ish (and I agree) but something I have never done and I�m looking into a change in technique and this will be a technique painting.

For the old-timers I�m going for a vbojne look(sp?)(the member name of an artist that apparently no longer comes by)
_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com

Light · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:20 pm

snake,

thats what I suspecte.d. in that case you will not want to push the corrugatoers down as much.. you might raise 1 in a surprise look even

although you can still use the corrugators... you will definitely not drop the jaw.. the main difference will be the eyes though.

I've trying a redraw and I must say it is very hard to get these nuancies and I know exactly what to do.. annoying btw her jaw is lopsided and her nose may be a liitle low

heh.. keep working

Snakebyte · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:30 pm

Yea, I noticed the lopsidedness when I posted it too.
I�m not too sure what you mean by dropping the jaw though, do you mean no opening the mouth as much? Or tilting her head forward?
Perhaps the full image will help�.

I have a blood layer that is turned off.....
_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com

AndyT · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:02 pm

http://www.deviantart.com/view/3077835/

I hope you don't find this extremely ridiculous.
Some changes I made: The face is not as long.
She doesn't look that relaxed (to me she looked not interested ... almost yawning).
I changed the perspective (mouth and eyes).
The eyes are squinted.

The image is just meant to illustrate the points ... please ignore the quality.
I submitted this at deviantart because my homepage is being moved to a different server right now.
I'll remove it from there as soon as you have seen it.

Hope this helps!
_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

Light · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:05 pm

Oh, I see now. Yes, I meant dropping the jaw in relation to the mouth. You can't open the mouth without the jaw moving DOWN. Try it!

However, I see another major problem now. You have tilted her head forward,

Yet her eyes are still half-way between the top of her head. They should be lower now probably by the same amount her head is tilted forward.

However, you've also dropped her jaw so maybe the eyes are okay if you would undrop the jaw. ;0

I made some diagrams but decided whats the use! Remember the jaw is a horseshow shape, and attaches just in front and below the ear.

You can't move the mouth without movign the jaw. But most of the time it moves very little.

So, mostly you need to do what I said before to make this work.

But FIRST I would start over and draw a proper head without the skewing of the features.

The easy way is to use own face but also visualize. Make a normal good looking head first, and then draw arrows pointing what muscles will be contracting, and then start distoring the features.

That is the best way because then you can control more what you are doing.

I'd do just a FRONT normal face first, and then put it in perspective, too.

Snakebyte · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:19 pm

AndyT, I see what you are getting at and Iv thought about trying that, will give it a shot.

Light, I think I see what you are getting at, I'll try AndyT's suggestion and see if it resolves some issues.

Also, thanks for your help, I really want to get this right and it looks like it may happen.
_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com

Snakebyte · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:01 pm

Okay, here are some miner changes that probably doesn�t resolve the jaw issue now that I look at it�. But here is what I did, raised the jaw line (can be seen by the darker collar where the jaw was), lowered one brow, lowered both eyes a smidgen, squinted here eye�s (which gave her a sleazy look) shrunk her mouth a little and raised her lower lip (closing her mouth a little) and exposed a little more teeth on the bottom row�

The image on the right may help point out what to change, the blue or green? I raised the green a little in my change�.

EDIT: ....She looks like she just smelled something...will change...
_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com

AndyT · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:21 pm

I think it looks as if she's raising her right eyebrow.
That makes her look bored a little.

If that "I'm not impressed" expression is what you are after it's cool ...

I like the changes btw ...
_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

Snakebyte · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:34 pm

You know, your right, with the look she has now it looks as if she was caught and she has covered her self and is being threatened by some adversary�. May have to consider adding an armed opponent
_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com

Snakebyte · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:54 pm

I just wanted you to know AndyT that you may have seriously changed the way I saw the outcome of this picture, your comment has given me a flood of ideas that are so much better than what I was going to do originally�. I don�t think I�ll be able to sleep tonight now that I have so many great ideas�..

Thank you!
Wink

_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com

AndyT · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:56 pm

Errr ...
Sorry! ... and you're welcome! Wink

_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

Light · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:58 pm

Snake,

This is much closer (for the sexy-sneer). However, you've over done it in som parts. Thats okay though because you can always over-do it and work backwards.

The eyebrow is not raised like if she were trying flexing it to the max but it is more just slightly upraised. I'm not sure though if this can work with a strong corrugator wrinkling. It would be hard to do anyway.

The teeth barely show, she just moves her lips, and only barely jaw. One side of the mouth is pulled higher then the other.

Also, if not going for a mad-sneer then it might be possible to open the eyes a little, and show more of the pupil.

The squint is just a light squint, and the corrugators show only somewhat.

Relax the face more, and then tighten it, and see where goes.

Here are some views I can picture in my mind:

Mad-Sexy Sneer:

brow furrowed lightly
nose sneer very very little
right side of mouth pulled higher then other/lips slightly open showing teeth
top of eye lid (not brow) raised slightly or very relaxed anyway

Surprise-Sexy Sneer:

brow lifted slightly higher 1 side SLIGHTLY
nose sneer lightly or none
right side of mouth pulled higher/lips slightly open showing teeth
eye lids raised 1 side showing more of pupil

Going-to-get-you Sexy Sneer:

same as above but symetrical mouth showing fangs (sorta like what
you have) but only opened a LITTLE more then above. No real pull to the mouth. Lips very full.

Wink Sexy Sneer:

Eyes closed, mouth open, nose sneer.. this one should be easier then some of the others.

But sounds like you may have other ideas now. Facial expression is TOUGH I know because you have to draw each feature properly and the differences can be slight. I mean if she just opens her mouth a little and shows her teeth then it can look good but open it a little more and it looks like she's showing her teeth. (Caption changes from "I want you" to "Do I have something in my teeth?" ;0)

I guess this is why 3d programs were invented. ...

Snakebyte · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:19 am

Okay, here is what I did for this mouth: Took a picture of myself doing the pose (looked silly doing it) than used my own mouth as a reference (feminizing it of course). I have not done anything with the jaw just yet; just want to do one thing at a time.

Light, here is the look that I think I may go for now. She is in her �..room bathing in the blood of her victims when several armored solders come in and surround her, she is caught off guard and YOU (the viewer) are the one in charge (maybe, just don�t want to loose the pose). She has the look of concern/hiding her fear/seduction/and one who does not fear there weapons but fears�.the end. At this point she is done sneering at you and she is now relaxing her jaw as she listens to you charge her of high crimes (or something to that effect)

With what I have in mind now there will be no way I can finish this before Halloween� Smile

_________________
Kevin Moore
www.darkesthorizons.com