[Light]

Here is an article I wrote to put some of my thoughts down on art.

It discusses some of my thoughts on making original art. It is especially focused with the intent of the fantasy/to-be-master artist who will be creating original works. It has a lengthy discussion on the basics especailly aimed at thinking about the figure, and it has thoughts about process, painting technique, copying, rendering, and many more ideas.

I probably left out a lot of ideas, and I may write more in the future.

Reading my previous article The Last True Magic is pretty much a requirement because you have to already know how to visualize, and not just think ideas. But, it is referenced inside the article.

Like my last article, this doesn't go into specific details, but instead trys to gear you to the right direction of thinking, and trys to show you potentail mistakes, and general traps to avoid. It also contains several general suggestions for study, and improvement. Of key, importance is it also brings in the idea of description, and analytical judgement to the process of making art.

I hope someone likes it.

http://light1.home.mindspring.com/master_thoughts.doc

This is still a work-in-progress. I've just added many paragraphs to it, and the new ones are marked with an * for anyone who wants to find them easily. I may be adding more to it in the future. I feel that its packed with good information, and you may want to read it a few times just to get everything, and especially you'll want to do the exercises that found through out-it, and at the end of it.

----

ADDITIONAl: Please do not reply in this thread if you have anything negative to say about me. Please do not reply in this thread if you have anything POINTLESS to say. Please do not reply in this thread if you don't like my article: Obviously, I didn't write it for you. Feel free to reply in this thread if you like my article. Please do not ask any questions about my work. The essay is sufficient in qualifying my work. If you think otherwise then: Obviously, I didn't write it for you.

Thank you for your listening.

Also, please do listen. I don't like trolls. Thanks for everyone for understanding.

Also, please anyone who has ever said anything negative about me or my work: don't reply. Thank you.

[bearsclover]

Just thought I'd add something--anything--to this thread, which would automatically prompt you to transform it into a "depreciated" (or however you're spelling it these days) thread.

Countdown:

3...

2...

1...

"Depreciated"


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Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

[fukifino]

Ya know Light...if you would have just let bearsclover have her say in the first one, without bothering to reply, you could have kept that thread and it probably wouldn't have turned into a flame war. It takes 2 to flame.

Now you're just cluttering up the forum with a million little threads and, frankly, acting like a 12 year old.

[bearsclover]

Exactly. I questioned Light's article in the first thread. I was asking the same "challenging" things that those before me asked. ("Where's his artwork in this article?") And it escalated from there.

And in one of these other now "depreciated" threads, another artist questioned Light's article. At length. But politely and specifically.

So what does he do? BAM! "Depreciated." Each and every time, it seems, no matter who responds, no matter how they frame their questions or challenges to him, he's going to do that.

I think it's time for his semi-monthly crash-and-burn, or something. It's a puzzle what motivates him to do some of this stuff, that's for sure.
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Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

[merlyns]

-angry cat mode on-
*hissssssssss*

you are cluttering the forum!!!!

-david
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[Xyster21]

It is ok to crit someones writing and ask questions (you learn from doing so and even make things better) but blatant bashing has no greater outcome than throwing stones at someone and they start throwing back.

On the other hand if your an artist you better learn quickly to take criticism or you aren't going to get far (much less improve with other peoples crits or suggestions etc). Same would go for anyone doing any sort of writing... there are always skeptics and there are always people that question things so you would have to always keep a cool head on things and take what they say with a grain of salt. Walking away from an arguement (if it is a constructive arguement not a destructive one mind you) is a bad idea... it doesn't go good for someones popularity and doesn't help in promoting the idea that they were trying to defend.

And you don't need to post so many times and close them over and over, just keep cool about it. Some of the things people agree with (like me) and some of the OTHER things are kinda vague and maybe should be clarified. And maybe made more succinct and to the point in other areas instead of dragging a point on for too long because it may make the reader become disinterested in reading further. I agree that some things in your .doc file need to have visual reference or examples of because it is difficult for the people like I do to learn from just hearing and not 'seeing' (ie with an example) or a hands on deal. You probably aren't (if you are I don't mean to insult) a professional writer so everyone shouldn't expect perfection right away. And you mentioned before you don't have time to work your own art work so what proof would you then have of your thoughts put to application (such as visualizing). From that maybe it would be best to set aside a certain amount of time to work on this a little bit more and take the advice of other people by including examples for us. And if you aren't serious enough about art to push yourself to create new art work then I don't know why you would be posting this (not to be mean).

Summing up: ... I am sure many of us artists that read your thoughts/txt aren't trying to trash your work but to merely make suggestions and ask questions. Although a few of us might lose our cool, just stay clearheaded and don't follow in their footsteps. And as a writer and artist supporting ones own thoughts, you shoud (again not saying that you don't) give answers with the supporting relevant evidence.

Again not trying to put anyone down just stating my opinion as nicely as I can.
Just my 2 cents.
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Meep meep

[Light]

Xyster,

Nobody has asked specific questions. It's just been been a few bashers or people trying to get me to prove myself. I more then answered where I am as an artist at the start of my essays, and I also furthermore stated if a person wasn't willing to take a risk then don't bother to read.

I'm not a professional writer but I've been offered professional writing contracts. This isn't my best writing because getting flamed, and bashed all the time doesn't help my creativity any. However, it was meant just to be a collection of notes to be used for reference.

Even if I were writing this professional or to sale then I'm still not sure that I'd use illustrations for the specific reason that the things I write about are not things to be seen on paper but to be grappled with, visualized, and worked over. If I put what I wrote on paper then people would just "see it at a gance", but they wouldn't get it. If you have to visualize, and do the thought experiments yourself then that is what makes it valuable.

Heck, as far as that goes we see perfect anatomy, perpective, and lighting every second of every minute of every waking hour of every day and yet people still have trouble with this stuff. So, just "showing you" will not give you the answers.

Again, most of the people were not interested. How many of the people replied did the writing exercising? etc. None. But again, like I said: I'm not trying to convert all the people who disagree with me.

You can look at the junk threads, and see that all of the post were by people who just posted stupid crap. Wren is the only one who made even some semi-intelligent remarks, and I replied to those remarks.

You ask a question, and get an answer. You don't keep droning on. That's annoying at the least, and in some cases it is harrasment.

If anyone is really struggling, and having trouble, and is interested, and NICE, and hasn't flamed me then sure I will help to explain anything I can.

The visualization idea is my discovery. But, it is backed up by other fantasy, and great artist too. It is probably backed up by psychologist too.

These are my ideas but many of them are also general truths too.

Basically, again about proving myself. It is something that is anti-creativity, and anti-productive. The type of "prove yourself idea" becauseit implies by nature competitive spirit, and competitive spirit is not a creative spirit.

However, I do have lots of notes, and things that DO tend to imply that my ideas on visualization are correct. I would provide these more often but I they werent neccesary, and when I added them people just tried to deny them. So, I can cite many more examples.


The first line of my post is:
"Here is an article I wrote to put some of my thoughts down on art. "

I didn't write any of the following:

"Here is an article I wrote to put some of Bearsclovers thoughts on art"
"Here is THE first, and last essay on art. It is the truth, and it is proven"
"Here is an article I wrote to prove some of my thoughts on art."
"Here is an article and I want some critiques, and comments on "
"Here is an article I wrote for everyone, and everyone should read it, and get it"
"Here is an article I wrote, and oh yeah you can use this thread to post non related pictures, flames, and rants against me. You can use it to try to talk down about my artwork too -- which is actually better then some of yours by the looks of it"


Xys, also I think the fact that they keep flaming me even in dead threads is proof of the nature of what is going on.

People keep complaining about the clutter: Well that is how I feel about when people post stupid commments, crap, and stuff in my threads.

One idiot posted a representation of moses.

Anyway, I'll leave this thread up if it doesn't get any worse but I'm not going to let something I wrote for free about my own thoughts which was meant to be helpful (even if just to 1 person) be turned into a flame thread by 1 or 2 people. If it was any other forum those people would be warned, deleted, and probably even banned.

But, again if you have specific trouble then feel free to ask. I do feel the information is good, and I wish I knew everything that is contained in my essays when I started. But, then again maybe people have to at a certain place before they start to understand these things.

Here are two good analogies to use:

In a bizarre world everyone does calisthenics to get strong (push ups etc).

I come along, and say "hey you know lifting weights builds strength too, and you know arnorld shwaznager lifts weights"

ANd the people who do calistehnics say, "But can you prove that you are stronger then all the people in the world who do calistehnics?"

And some other idiot comes along, and says "hey you dont look like anorld shwaznager" and then some other idiot comes along and says "look how big I got using calisthenics with stereoids and that means weight lifting cant be better because you didnt use steroid and arent as big as me.. " etc

----

Another analogy is if someone posted on a cooking forum:

"Here are some of my ideas about cooking, and this is my essay about my thoughts on cooking. I'm not a master chef but these are some things that helped me.. "

And then people post, "I don't cook that way. Prove it. Make a cheesecake"

Other people join in with, "Make a lassangua" hey make a cornbread, can you make a corn bread? What about japanese rise? Come on prove it!

"Hey why didn't you cite any examples for french fries? What are you dope!"

"I can't even use a microwave. Your essay sucks!! duh duh"

"I dont think your reasons for your thoughts are sufficient for me. I only eat fruit"

"Hey look a picture of moses!"

----

Basically, Xys, the people 99% of the people who's posted have been harrasing me, and trolling. It is usally the same people over and over again, and then a few newbies jump in because they don't have anything to show, and want to feel good about themselves.

I really am a NICE guy, and I really do know a lot about art among many others things.

PS: Please do respect my wishes at the top. I will not start a new thread unless this turns into another flame war against me but if it gets much worse then obviously I will have to think about what to do about the harrasment.

BTW, just to save some people perhaps some embarrasment in the future: deprecated is a word, and it is found in the dictionary, and I did spell it properly.

I don't want anyone to respond though who has flamed me in the past. I'm not looking to answer questions, prove myslelf, etc. We know where we all stand, we've all expresed our ideas more then enough.

I will only be taking honest questions by people who are interested in learning who are geniunely nice, who have found some value in my writing, and have not flamed me. I will only be answering questions that have not been asked before also.

It would also be better really if you just message me because a lot of people can't control themselves. I suspect they sit on here 24 hours a day waiting to make a come-back to me. So, if the admin would lock this thread now then that might even be a good idea.

Basically, I do not want to see any quotes of the things I've written here, follow-ups, replies, defenses, silly remarks, stupid remarks, harrasment, negativity, etc. Basically those are the types of things that have compelled me to kill the last threads, and the things that lead to the type of flamewars which are not productive for myself or anyone else.

I do not want to see any post by Bearsclover either. Fukiko, you are right that it does take 2 to argue but it only takes 1 to harrass, and bully.

[bearsclover]

[Xyster21]

I never said the stuff you said sucked or anything (just so you know, not saying that you assumed I did either)
About the other threads I didn't get a chance to read them because I don't check this section (Digital Art Discussion) as much as I should (has some interesting things in it sometimes) unless it is a thread I had started and I was checking up on it.

I tried to stay as neutral as best I could because, despite what some people may think, that article was helpful for MY own creative development.
Other didn't find it helpful at all etc etc... but it's just alot of opinion. People have a right to state their own opinions but atleast being thoughtful about it and trying not to entice the other into a fist flurry.
I don't know everything about art (and I am pretty sure I nor anyone else ever will either) but something new to me was pointed out to me in your article that I have never tried nor thought of doing before, and has become helpful (again, my own opinion).

Also:
some of the analogies you stated may stir up things more so then calm them down. (also the name calling etc ppl might take as if referring to them)

I probably mentioned this before but I never really visited this side of the forums and when I did I just saw alot of posts by you saying "this thread deprecated" etc so I really didn't know why you closed them (I just assumed and made an ass out of myself)

And people give him a little break... he wasn't out to hang anyone, and I am not a dictator so I can't say "play nice" but just keep cool heads and if you are offended, don't return the favor... thats how it shifts from good criticism to a wasted thread.

Bleh, long post again.
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Meep meep

[gezstar]

light, man, go for a walk. take a breather. i reckon you're a bit too wrapped up in it all right now, and could do with a step back.

but bearsclover, i think he's got the message, no need to antagonize any further

Peace!

[ceenda]

[Drunken Monkey]

Yeah, trying to be a revered art teacher is tough without being able to show anything practical. "Go ahead and try my technique on producing X for i am the best artist in the world" should have been "I have a theory on X, and although i am still a student myself i wanted to share this with you."

I hope you grow out of your delusions Light. Some of those artists you called morons and idiots produce artwork i'd put on my wall.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Wren]

[Connor]

He's hilarious with his "I'll take my ball and go home attitude".

[Citizen Cow]

Im publishing a Book on Quantum Physics. E-Mail for Pre-Orders.

[-HoodZ-]

[Micket]

ill have a copy of that book cow!

[Light]

Wren,

You made some points. However, early it sounded like you were simply stating your opinions, and challenging my ideas. You should read yourself what you wrote.

I replied to your original very first post, and took note of your ideas, and I replied too. This is how constructive feedback works. Someone makes something, and if you feel strongly about it then you reply in a nice way , the author or person who makes the work takes note, and replies back. There is no need to keep citing our differences.

I took note of your ideas, and gave you some feedback on where I stand. I feel that further discussion of the same ideas is more then somoene simply stating an opinion but it becomes a challenge.

You make comments, pose questions, and get answers. But when you make some comments which imply certain questions, and then I respond to those questions then there is no need to continue the discussion because if we do then it becomes a challenge. And, I've already said that I'm not interested in a challenge, and I've no need for that. Challenges can also be done intelligently in a controlled forum where both parties have rules, and regulation. But, again this is not the place for a challenge, and Im not interested in a challenge, and I decline that.

For example, this is intelligent example of giving someone feedback on a work:

I think you have some good ideas but it would be better if they were organized more, and you had more proof. Will you be organzing your ideas more in the future or adding at least some proof of what it does? I think right now that your writing is not accesible to a lot of the people.

A reply:

These are a rough collection or thoughts of my ideas. I'm still working on them myself, but I wanted to make sure that they were avaible for anyone who wanted them, and that is why I wrote them, and put them up for free. I didn't write them to reach everyone, and I'm opposed to trying to prove myself. I feel that I'm a good artist, and know a lot about art. I realize my strengths, and weaknesses. As far as artist using these methods, Brom has been known to visualize (cite example), and Boris (cite example) so I think it is what a lot of the best artist are doing. I do have plans to write a book in the future, and will obviously be doing a more rigorous treatment then. Thanks for the input.

Question:

Why didnt you make illustrations? It is hard to follow along.

Reply:

I didn't use illustrations because I made this for free, and rather quickly. And, also, just as imprtantly because I think that ti is important that people have to work to get it. I feel they'll get more out of it.

Statement of opinion:

I don't think that your ideas work, and I don't think that you are a good artist.

Reply: Your comments are noted. Obviously, I disagree with both.

That is how intelligent feedback is suppose to work. These are still not the type of questions that I want to answer. A lot of the answers can be infered by my actions or previous writing. For example, the fact I started my thread with a "this is a collection of thoughts on my art" or something to that nature states that I may not make a formal case. The fact that I said at the start of both of my essays that I wasn't a master artist infers or that means it can be implied that I don't feel I need to be master artist to write about my ideas, and it also implies that people who want to read what a master artist has written should look elsewhere. So, thats what Im saying by getting the implications intelligently. Not everything has to be addressed in a formal manner. If I didn't include illustrations then obviously it means that I didn't feel the need too. The answers can be defered by what I've written. So many of these types of questions are already answered or implied.

The type of questions, and answers that are MUCH more valuable to me as a writer, and the type of questions I am interested in answering is for people who do work at it, and don't get something.

For example:

I liked your essay, and I appreicate that it is free. Some parts are unclear to me though. What exactly are you meaning when you refer to the "fartherest cross-section" defining the outline?

Reply:

I am stating, well look at your hand, and rotate it so the thumb will rise. Notice that you see less, and less of the hand, and the "far line that you see" as the outline will be the y-cross section of the hand in question. I hope this helps. You may want to use a 3d program to see a hand in 3d if you need more help.

That is the types of questions that Im interested in answering because thats what I was writing about. These are not the type of questions I got.

Also, Wren, it is quite hard to reply to the people who really want to learn what I'm writing about when I have so many people flaming me.

It is true that words are not actions, but it is not easy to ignore 5 or 6 people attacking my artwork, my ideas, and my opinions, and also find the 1 or 2 people who are honestly trying to learn more.

It is also better to write in a non challenging manner. I still thought some of your writing was more challenging, and confrontational then inquisitive, and supportive. You maybe were trying to be but again it is hard to know. If I get 10 people making obvious flames, and then another person writing a reply in a challening manner then it is easier to be influence by the previous flames.

Also, it is important to realize that our freedoms in the USA, and our constitutions over the entire world are formed in words, and as such words are very powerful. We communicate all of our higher ideas through words. So, words are powerful.

It well-known among authors that nothing can be qualified sufficiently, and everything can have holes in it. Any statement looked at closely enough can be made false.

It is well known that any system can not be both consistent, and complete. So, if my writing is consistent then its not going to be complete, and if its complete then it may not be 100% consistent.

Take an author who writes:

Man is made of up of a collection of cells.

Well, he were challenged like some people have chalenged me then we could find many problems with that statement:

Man is not made up of cells!! He is made up of atoms.
I do not think man is made of cells. He is made of information.
Man is not made of cells. He is made of ideas. Isn't this true?
Man is not made of anything. He makes his life for himself.
Man is defined by his ability to create art, and this has nothing to do with cells
Man is not made up of anything because man doesnt exist. How can a collection of cells be a man?

----

All of these statements have some truth to them, and are different ideas. The key idea is to read what the author is writing about, and have a critical mind but let it relax a little. The key structure the author was writing was perhaps about the idea of systems or something else even.

So basically Wren if you want me to listen to you then you should write nicely, ask specific as possible questions, and then let me reply. I may not change you opinion. Obviously, if yuo feel strong about somethign then my answer may not be sufficient for you. However, you should respect that if you are really trying to learn.

As far as the closing the threads go, I think that says a lot more about the people flaming me then it does about myself. It shows that people are just wanting to flame because they get to have there say, and I basically deleted my post, and they still want to flame. It is obvious to me that is all that some people are about, and you cant reply to those people, you cant reason to those people, and you cant prove yourself to those people because they just dont care, and they dont respect themselves or other people.

I understand that I could get deleted for my actions. I don't want to get deleted because I still think this forum has some merit. But, also, at the same time if the administrators would ignore how other people were treating me, and ignore the reasons that I did what I did, and then honestly I'm not sure if I really should be here or if this a place to me.

So, I mean sure I've had book offers, and stuff too. Anyway, so I'm sure that there are a lot of forums where my ideas would be appreciated, and people may plenty of benefit.

Honestly, if I had it to do over again then I wouldnt even have posted my ideas here. I never knew that posting some of my ideas would generate the type of flame thread that it did. I don't need the flames as a creative person, and I don't the flames either when there are a lot of people who would get a lot out of my ideas, and be nice about it.

Wren, also, again I dont reply to everything because I simply can not answr every possible if-then-case-thought construction possibly. You mentioned observation, and in both my essays observation is mentioned repeatedly, and you'll find many references in both essays citing importances of observation.

For the people who are interested in my system, and are in interested in what I'm writing then I'd say my system is hinged on the ideas in my essays.

Basically, the first idea is visualization as a strong sensory process , and knowledge through visualization, and visualization as the primary part of my system. It doesnt hold up without that. The second part of my system which can only be understood after the first part is down is basically functional visualization (ie visualize as tool)/and working a visualize, another strong component is improving a work by visualization -- in that case we are talking about a reactionary and corrective use for visualization (and for all the people who have thanked for the critiques.. this is how I make my critiques. I dont look at what is given but look beyond, and I thank a lot of the people who found my critiques useful, and were nice), the next part of my system is analytical knowledge of forms and perspective (ie, the idea of lofting forms, the idea of structure behind form), and the last part of my system is descriptive processes, and trying to put everything into words that we have trouble with.

That is what the exercises about translating into words the difference between a manniken, and a figure drawing is about, and translating into words the difference between a photograph and a master painting. Also, observation is a major part of my system, and you'll find many references to it in again both my essays.

Of course there are useful hints, and general tips thrown througout my writing. And those are just good general ideas, and tips.. ie mirroring work, and such. They are not as original or as "important" as my system because its not as original in the context but its useful. I hope this helps..

Thanks

[Connor]

Your grasp of the English language is too poor to actually encourage book deals. I'm sorry but that is a fact based on your posts. Artistic style and taste may be transitory, the rules of grammar and sentence structure are not. Even Jesus had to show examples of his abilities to win followers to his cause. You aren't that important nor have you demonstrated said abilities in the field you seem to love to expound on in a most verbose manner. Until you actually impress anyone we are all just neophytes awaiting the messiah of good taste and smaller ego. Thanks, your pal, me.

[bearsclover]

[Drunken Monkey]

big hairy egos are so much fun to poke
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[oDD]

i don't understand why are you people wasting your time.
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portfolio | art blog

[Wren]

Light, i think what you are failing to realize is that my posts are an effort to help you comminucate your ideas. They are not meant to challenge you or degrade you in any way and i am very sorry if anything i said came across as such. You must understand that i am a published illustrator and designer, an experienced editor and copywriter, and an accomplshied lecturer and busniess trainer. It's in my very nature to try and help people.

Part of my attempt to help you includes opening and maintaining an active dialogue. Whereby i gave you my evaluation of your ideas, you stated the reasoning for your approach and i in turn addressed those points so that you may (hopefully) discover some more sucessful ways of presenting your idea. Nothing more, nothing less. No challenges, no insults. Just my honest critique and advice that you may use or disregard as you see fit.

As i stated before, if i thought your idea was stupid or that you had no right to express it, then i would not be wasting my time trying to offer you some free advice.

You seem to think i am trying to get a rise out of you or feel that i should be asking questions about your idea. I am not. I have no questions regarding your thesis, and i certainly am not trying to provoke you. I'm just trying to help you see areas where you can improve your methods for communicating your ideas. I had thought that was obvious, but i am either not making myself clear or you have become too defensive to recognize friendly advice when you see it.

So take a deep breath, and re-read what i've said and try to bear in mind that it's not meant to attack you, or demand anything from you. It's just heartfelt advice from a person who is trying to be nice and give you a hand.
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SASart Studios

[Loudmouth]

Beneath each rock an insult, in every hearth, a flame
You know there'll be some fireworks when you hear this fellow's name:

Light the clever, Light the brave
We've seen him rant--we've seen him rave!
But I challenge any man
To sit and read his master-plan
Without his eyeballs turning glassy
As he scans the musings gassy!

Should one, all courage, dare to raise
Anything that isn't praise
Light, all Freudy, invokes the word:
"You're all just a dirty HERD!"

Light, get knotted, Light, shut up!
Light, you've got to loosen up!
Light, it's all right if you stay
But only if you'll join the play.
Being aloof is entertaining
But that's what's got us all complaining.
So eat a slice of humble pie
And we won't tell you to go die.

I doubt you liked my little rhymie
But that's just fine--kiss my heinie.

[Drew]

Holy crap you people type a lot. Does anyone here take the time to draw? Anyone?

Just let it go people.

[dr . bang]

[davi]

holy crap my account still works

[kimchi]

I just farted and it smells like ass. Surprising? Not in the least.

[RoadMaster]

(insert well thought out and informative response to Light here which will be disregarded as silly infintile trolling)

Honestly... why should people try if you just consider everyone your lesser?

People aren't starting a flamewar due to the fact that you posted your ideas on art (which you think is some grand and noble sacrifice of your obvious amounts of too much free time) they are starting to flame you because of your immature attitude towards them and their advice. Perhaps if you included examples of your work now it wouldn't help your case much, since you've already dug yourself a hole too deep to climb out of with no one really willing to throw you a rope, but if you started this crusade of yours with a little bit more of an open mind and a less spammy attitude (in other words, NOT deleting all your posts over and over) it probably would have turned out better for everyone.



... Whoops, I said I wasn't going to bother ranting about it.... my bad!
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The elves, the EVIL sinister elves! darn them!

[J Bradford]