[rdgraffix]

Ok, I have been reading the Mac vs PC thread and I have a more technical question on the difference between the two. I've been using PCs since I was knee high to a grasshopper, but as soon as I got into graphics and retouching I was using a Mac at work.

My question is this: I've heard that Macs are more practical or streamlined or effective for graphical, illustrative and production work, but HOW? What do they have or do that a PC cannot? Is it that the programs were created for a Mac platform and the PC varients are of a lower quality or stability, the way it handles large files and memory or what?

I've always done my graphical work on a Mac, but I'm thinking about getting a home system for illustration and freelance work. I'd much rather have a PC if there is no real difference between it's performance and a Macs. A high-end PC can also be used as an awesome games machine and I've heard it's much cheaper for a comparable system (major draw card) ... so then why would I want a Mac?

What makes Macs "industry standard?"

[Jabberwocky]

I work on both and I really don't see any difference. I use tons of software on both. Everything from Flash to PS and Freehand. I really see no difference except for short cut keys and little things like that.

I prefer a PC over a mac because I like the double buttons on the mouse. I also find PC easier to upgrade myself.

[Ian Jones]

I have used both Mac and PC. I like PC more, as mentioned because of the two buttons on the mouse. The ability to configure software and hardware extensively.

The difference between Mac an PC is that you pay extra with a Mac to get "Shiny Transparency, and funky colours". joking...

The real difference is in the hardware. Mac's are pretty well a standard thing, meaning when you by a G4, you know it will have just about exactly the same hardware and OS as any other G4 on the planet. With PC's when you by a pentium4 1.5 ghz, you will rarely have exactly the same hardware as the next person, like RAM, ports, cards, disk space, peripherals etc..

So I think that the GFX industry ppl like Mac's because they are consistent, and you can network them without problems due to their consistency. You seem to get less problems due to this consistency.

I still like PC's more though.

[Pat]

Macs have a number of advantages both in software and hardware.

1) Unified hardware architecture, as pointed out above, makes for true plug and play upgrades. People in production environments need to be working on, not fixing their computers. Troubleshooting is relatively straight-forward due to the limited amount of hardware and software variables. Likewise, calls to tech-support are likely to be more productive and quicker.

2) Colorsync. The MacOS ships with very sophisticated color-matching software to ensure consistent output between the screen and the printer. This if far more mature than the Window's equivelent.

3) Multiple monitor support. While Windows now supports this, it's been a regular feature of the MacOS for far longer --a much needed option for graphics pros.

4) Software configurations are far easier on the Mac. Likewise, software uninstalling is easy as well as most applications don't use hidden files, modify the registry, or have dll's scattered across your hard drive. The MacOS can be reinstalled from scratch in under half an hour. 15 minutes if you're quick. It also needs to be done less often. There are quite literally some problems in Windows that only a reinstallation will solve.

5) Firewire ports. Video pros enjoy native hardware/software support for digital video.

6) Quicktime. Quicktime is by far the best suite of multimedia tools available. It's integrated into the OS, it features more codecs and is both easy and open to development. Programs like Photoshop make extensive use of QT on the Mac, enhancing the software.

7) Cross-Platform compatibility with shared media. Macs have always been able to read and write to PC floppies, zip disks, etc. The reverse is not true.

8) As a professional investment, Macs tend to hold their value longer, making their resale a viable option during your upgrade process.

There are a bevy of other advantages as well which appeal to professionals who wish to focus on their work instead of toubleshooting their machines ie. fewer virus problems, tighter internet security, etc.

Personally, I prefer Macs. However, I use and enjoy PC's as well. It's worth noting that all those advantages do come at a cost --namely a higher sticker price and a smaller software base. While neither of those has been an issue for me, it may be for others.

-Pat

[gekitsu]

well... as pat said, macs tend to be better in a lot of issues.
i often thought about "when i have a job and earn enough money, then i will go for a g4 for graphics stuff and a tb 1.8 for playing"

the clear advantage of pc's is the price and software.
on the other hand, the uniform hardware of macs seems to be a very good thing to me as an errormessage-haunted pc user.

there is no real solution for that problem... some like pc's more, some like macs...
i was a hardcore pc-er for a long time because i learned everything on a pc. now, i start changing my mind to be more open to macs.

pc: more variety of hardware configs to fit your special taste, more software (esp. games!) available, more widespread.

mac: expensive, uniform hardware (is a pro and con in one...), and there have to be compatibility problems witha lot of pc files and networking i think. (i don't know for sure...)

well... this appears to be a problem like the question about "size of my wacom"...

[don perkins]

I just wanted to say that I agree with the posts so far, and that this is the most mature, well thought out discussion of platforms I've ever seen on the web. The only thing I have to add-I've used both Macs and PC's in production environments, and now just freelance with mac-is that I have a 4 button wheel mouse on my G4 that I got from BestBuy for $30... so there is really no difference to me. Use what you're comfortable with and what works best for you...hell they're getting very affordable, buy both and support the economy

[Gort]

In response to Pat's comments (I don't hate you Pat - ok?)

1) Unified hardware architecture
To me this means proprietary architecture. Sorry, but if you need a replacement, it'll have to come from an authorized Mac vendor.

2) Colorsync
For the last three years I have been sending print jobs to service bureaus from my PC(s), and I have never once encountered this problem - even in Web work too. I did encounter one client - on a Mac - that had an improper color sync; her machine was not configure properly, and she didn't how to do it. Failed user experience cannot be laid to blame on the OS or platform.

3) Multiple monitor support.
Far longer on Macs? Perhaps, but how far long? I've been doing it for three years now.

4) Software configurations are far easier on the Mac
Software configs or the OS. If it's software, I disagree with you, but I will admit that Windows can be a bit arduos - if you don't know what you're doing. Experienced users can streamline windows just as you can streamline Mac OS

5) Firewire ports. Video pros enjoy native hardware/software support for digital video.
Uh - that can be a pretty standard thing on a lot of PCs today (Sony, Gateway, Micron), and if you don't have Firewire, a simple PCI install is all it takes.

6) Quicktime. Quicktime is by far the best suite of multimedia tools available.
Abosolute nonsense. That's arbitrary - Quicktime does not recognize every new codec available. I installed QT5, and although I specifically told it what media to control, it took over EVERYTHING. I now have to download certain WinMedia files and specifically "Open With" Windows Media Player.

7) Cross-Platform compatibility with shared media.
Damn! You got me!!

8) As a professional investment, Macs tend to hold their value longer, making their resale a viable option during your upgrade process.
Maybe - I upgraded my motherboard, CPU and memory for $550; I still used the HD, CDROM, etc. My machine is presently faster than anything Mac has to offer on the market; a comparable Mac is $2750; go figure.

Now let me say that I am not Anti-Mac; I've worked on both and will most likely contine to do so, but I prefer the PC. It's as fast if not faster in most cases and cost less. I have bills to pay and mouths to feed, and I'll be damned if I am gonna fork out more money because it's the "hip and cool, creative" thing to do.

[Blind]

Jabber: You can use a regular USB 3 or 4 button mouse on a Mac. The first thing I did when my old job dropped a brand new G4 w/21" Studio Display in front of me was to throw that stupid hockey puck mouse in the garbage and replaced it with my trusty Logitech MouseMan >8)

I've used both Macs & PCs for a very long time, and I prefer PCs. Well built PCs, that is. It's no mistake that Macs only have something like 8% market share.

I would definitely like to hear how Macs are faring these days for artists using OSX, though. OS9.04 crashed on a daily basis for me when I had a G4. I've heard that with OSX, stability is less of a problem. Is this true?

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Blind ]

[don perkins]

I'm using 9.1 and OSX, and I really never crash. I had a problem with IE and Outlook explorer for awhile, but I found out it was because I was using some downloaded customizing software for my 4 button logitech mouse that was causing it. Once I got rid of that, no problems at all.
I've really had no problems crashing with the macs, although I know people who have. I think a lot of it has to do with your workflow habits. Some people seem to mesh better with one platform over another, hence my statement to use what works for you, and don't worry about what anyone else says, or uses.

[Pat]

In response to Tom Carter:

1) Most of the hardware in the my mac is standard PC equipment. I've got a standard PC ATAPI CDROM drive and ATA hard drive --which any PC user would feel comfortable dealing with. Since PCI/USB and AGP are all standards, you might be surprised to know that PC video cards, mice and monitors all work on my mac. Curiously, in 15 years on 5 macs I've never ONCE had to make a trip to an authorized Mac dealer. In the same space of time, I've overseen roughly 45 PC's, about half of which were in need of repair at any given time --as soon as i fixed one, another developed a problem. Of the PC's I personally used, ALL 4 of them had serious lingering hardware issues which neither I or tech support could solve. 2 of them were faulty motherboards. My time is more valuable than my hardware. It's a simple business decision to come to the conclusion that I was spending half my day repairing faulty equipment and it was costing me a lot. When they work, they work great. But saving $1000 dollars on your inital hardware investment could (and in my case did) result in even more money lost on the back end.

2) Colorsync is a professional tool. There are still stupid computer users out there. It's not very fair to hold this against the platform.

3) Multiple monitor support has been available on macs since 1987. I'm amused at your three years figure.

4) While ease of software configuration is minor issue, it's worthy to note that the Human Interface Guidelines set up by Apple (and now copied by Windows) calls for standardized interface logic across applications. Macs have been, since their inception, uniquely streamlined. Windows is getting better with this admittedly, but IMHO it's still not there.

5) Firewire ports are NATIVE on the mac. Read, comes with every mac. There are no unreliable 3rd party drivers or faulty hardware. Did I mention that Firewire was developed by Apple?

6) Quicktime took over everything on your PC? Did you know that WMP does the same thing on a Mac? Score one for the Apple engineers. It seems that most software installers are predatory, so what's your point? I think it's not a question of "if they're evil", but rather to what extent. For example, a friend tried to remove Internet Explorer from his PC and his OS WOULD NOT function.

7)

8) My 2 year old G3/450 cost $1900 when originally purchased. A quick trip to Ebay's completed auctions shows that similar machines go for about $800-$1100 dollars. Not only do Macs retain their value longer, but there's also a strong demand for them.

Lastly, no one's asking you to,"...fork out more money because it's the "hip and cool, creative" thing to do." You're reacting negatively to an advertisting image, not the practical benefits of the platforms we're discussing here. If you've got mouth's to feed you'd do well to consider ALL the supplimentary costs involved with running any given platform.

-Pat

[Jabberwocky]

Blind - Yeah I know, but I'm not going to buy one just for school. I got a cordless mouse with my tablet which I take to and from school which works. Well all except if I use the wheel on it too much all the programs close on me.

[Gort]

Ok Pat - I am not going to argue with you on this; you obviously have your view and I have mine.

In defense, I've had a number of Mac advocates tell me, in spite of my argument, that I am not part of the crowd; I'm not part of the hipness. It has nothing to do with marketing - I've been personally lamblasted and shunned by Mac advocates for my directions.

If there's such a "strong demand" for Macs, then why don't we see more of them? We don't, because they're ridiculously expensive; the average consumer just isn't going to buy it (pardon the pun). Besides, the higher ups at Apple shot themselves in the foot years ago when they shunned the game developing community - another smooth move for innovation

Now I can point out the Mac users I know that have had problems with their Macs and have had to send them to dealers for problems, and I can tell you that I have never had to visit a "bench" for my PC. We can both go on and on and on, but you know what? You're not going to change the way I think, and I am certainly not going to change the way you think, so what do you say we call it a day and go have a pint.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Tom Carter ]

[Gort]

I just wanted to further state that I am not an enemy here to those using Macs - especially you Pat - I hope you don't frown upon me. My apologies if I came across abrasive.

[Pat]

"I just wanted to further state that I am not an enemy here to those using Macs - especially you Pat - I hope you don't frown upon me. My apologies if I came across abrasive."

Don't sweat it. I'm a pragmatist when it comes to computers --go with what works for you. In the final analysis the tool is never as important as the artist behind it.

-Pat

[bld]

The only advantage I see mac's having is mutli-platform file transfering. Its really nice being able to pop in a pc disk and read it without problems on a mac, but can you read a mac disk on a pc, nope.

Mac's are insanely expensive, but they also cater well to graphic users.
Reasons for high price:
Sony Monitor... nuff said.
If you want a mac, you need a mac, and have to pay for a mac, reguardless of price.

Mac's have WAY better color config out of box too.

I prefer to work on a PC myself, I can work faster, and most programs run on a PC just as fast or faster than a Mac now (but so many variables too).

Firewire, should not be an argument, when is it ever used? PC developers were going to put firewire in, but usb ports took off. Most things on apples puters are usb anyway. A bit of a shame, as firewire is pound for pound superior to usb.

[Gort]

Oooo - Firewire -I do love it. I am a DV enthusiast, and firewire rocks for capturing and DV control. Also, I am supposed to get a 60 gig external 7200 rpm firewire drive for Christmas (hot swappable and daisy chainin fool I'll be); either that or ADS Tech's Pyro Drive.

[Sukhoi]

Geez...
I have been in ridicolously bad luck, regarding the PC platform, which I have owned many years. However my PC owning friends have had a field trip...(s.o.b's )
On the other hand I hear the same stories from Mac-users.

Hey, computers are coolmost of the time, and computers suck sometimes.....Agreed?!

Sukhoi