[edible snowman]

My friend and I recently started the age old debate of whether or not art comes from natural ability or if it is learned through practice. I am better at drawing than him, and he took the position that drawing comes from innate talent. While it would be great to think that I am somehow talented, I told him the only reason I am decent at drawing is because I have practiced a lot for as long as I can remember. He said that he practiced "just as much as me," and i was just more talented. I think this is just an excuse people have. I could say the reason that spooge is better than me is because he has more talent, but I know thats not true. Even if he does have more talent, I think that if anyone truly wanted to they could learn to be as good as him, or anyone else they look up to. So I guess this was to post your opinions on this topic, I bet its already been done before, but hey. The main question I wanted to ask however, is just how much do you guys practice out there. I'm also going to count the posts until someone tells me this belongs in random musings. The main reason I put it here is because my friend only reads the digital art section and maybe your opinions will help him out. If you go through life thinking you will never be able to do something, chances are you won't.

[jcterminal]

natural talent only dictates your potential.

it's up to you to see how much of that potential you fill.

or, to create a visual analogy (for us right-brainers):

talent is the glass, hard-work is the liquid.

some of us are shot glasses, some of us are pints, and some of us (like spooge and that mullins character :P), are gallon jugs.

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j.c.terminal
mind
body
soul

[This message has been edited by jcterminal (edited December 12, 2000).]

[Mozeman]

Practice. Most people who draw well have been doing it their whole lives. No coincidence.

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Mozeman
Moser Brothers Animation Forum

[Rattmouth]

Easily the answer to this question is that both are important. I would certainly put more stress on practice, though.

I have lots of friends whom I know well, who will never reach their full potential because they just don't devote any of their free time drawing. It's quite sad really.

A great example is that when I was a young child (5 or 6 years old), I remember watching my older brother (8 or 9) draw jets and robots at home. He was amazing and meticulous. Every detail of every pop-rivet was drawn. I thought it was the coolest shit I'd ever seen. He was the VERY first inspiration I ever had. So, at that age I began drawing and haven't stopped since. My brother, on the other hand, got all into science and stuff. He stopped drawing completely at about age 12. I would love to set him down and try to coerce him to draw something. It would be a perfect study to see how much training and practice develops artistic ability. I'll see if I can get a sketch out of him over Christmas vacation. Then I'll post it here.

Anyway, here's my latest image. A self portrait of me after climbing the Bell Rock mountain in Sedona, Arizona.
http://www.rattmouth.com/images/other/desert-ratt.jpg

Right off, I had LOTS of trouble with drawing the hundreds of tiny scrub brush that approach the horizon line. In fact I am still detailing that part.

But lemme know what you think.

Oh yeah, and I look a lot like my brother too (but more handsome).

RM

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| | | |make something| | | |
www.rattmouth.com

[coconutmonkey]

I think its somepart born-with and some part learned. No one can be a awesome artist without studying and analyzing things. Some may say well DaVinci had natural talent, well if you look back at his studies, he actually took apart corpses and looked at what made up the human body what pulled on the skin to make it's shape. He wasnt born with this knowladge he had to learn it. Not necisserrily from a teacher though. I do however think some people are just born with artistic ambition and a different...way of seeing things. It is proven that some people are more right brain orientated than others, this would mean that they are more likely more artistic. If your friend wants to get better all they have to do is study harder and they will get better. Saying he's not born with talent is just a way of giving up.

That's my oppinion take it any way you want, i hope it made sense it's kinda late here ya know

[Spydur]

This could be debated forver...and now that we are talking about it in the forum we just might do that.
We are all born with the potential to be able to draw well. Have you ever really looked at a child's art? It's beautiful in it's originality. The child has a clear mind as to what he/she wants to create and their minds are not clouded with fear. They pump out picture after picture. See how many drawings are lying around them as they create....and none of them are crumpled up. Why is that? They are not worried of making a mistake. They have an open mind and are able to flow creatively with no boundaries. As we get older we start to encounter boundaries. Those obstacles include school, personal lives, tragedy...almost anything.
Personally, I took a long, long break away from drawing/art. I did'nt know what exactly the problem was at the time, but I could not express myself the way I wanted to on the paper. It just would not come out. By the time I started to experiment again I thought my work was just terrible. It takes practice, desire & a clear mind.
I discovered that my problem all along was me. I had to find the kid inside of me again. I should really thank my little nephew for indirectly showing me that. Now everything is fun again. What this long, rambling paragraph is trying to say is this....you may have the talent...but you have to have the LOVE.

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Let's face it, comedy is a dead art form. Now tragedy, ha ha ha, that's funny!

[Rattmouth]

Very well put Spydur.

[rm]

[This message has been edited by Rattmouth (edited December 12, 2000).]

[LordArioch]

It's the basic age-old genes vs. environment debate, which can never be definitively answered (because one can never be isolated from the other). All I can say is that I know plenty of talented artists who haven't put in the time to refine their skills, and plenty of artists who have excellent skills, but will never have the eye for form and color that more talented artists have.

As for your friend, I don't see much point to the argument except as a cop-out. You are who you are, deal with it. If you want to draw, then do it the best you can, and don't whine about who has more natural talent than you. No matter who you are, no matter how good you are, there's always someone better than you.

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-Arioch
well-of-souls.com

[AliasMoze]

I'll be bold and say 90% practice/environment, the rest genetic.

Except maybe Micke. That guy's a freak.

[nt]

Hey man just wanted to say my opinion. I got started with drawing like last summer and I haven't done much drawing. But now I'm drawing everyday. Well anyways it's no pont to draw if you don't got the passion to it!
I was the worst in drawing last year in school. And now those who looked down on me last year are now jealouse to me. I just think if you really love drawing althought you're not good at it you will be good someday. Just draw something everyday and time will show the results.

This is just my opinion in this case.

Cheers

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-Time is always against me-

[DirtyDigger]

quote:

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Originally posted by LordArioch:
If you want to draw, then do it the best you can, and don't whine about who has more natural talent than you.

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I do it the best I can but..

*Boo Hoo Weeping* Enayla makes my drawing look like poo poo



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"I Hear High Heels!" - DirtyDigger

[kimzoll]

I would say its 20% talent and 80 % hard work.
Kim

[Enayla]

I think it's such a mix between the two. To say that the practice is 90% isn't really fair either.


Let me give you an example, I have two good friends, both of which used to draw when we were younger (like everyone did back then). One was better than the other, but not by much, and I guess I was a little better than both of them. I continued drawing when we grew older, as did the one that wasn't so good. The other girl stopped for some reason, and turned to other things instead - the more technical part of computers.


And today... I would be the best of the three of us. Second, would be the one who actually stopped drawing - on the rare occasions that I force her to draw (heh heh) she shows that she's actually good... and the third poor girl, she can't really draw very well at all.


The point to this? Maybe me and the girl who was almost as good as me when we were younger had a similar degree of talent, but I had more determination. Which shows just how much some good practice can do. But on the other hand, it can't really bridge over a total lack of talent, which one of my friends proves by her very... ah... *pauses*... not good pictures.


I ramble, I know. I'll go crawl into a hole now...


DirtyDigger: There are artists on this forum that make me feel like a three year old with a crayon... *chuckle* I suggest you go swoon over their images for a bit


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��Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change��

[This message has been edited by Enayla (edited December 13, 2000).]

[Frost]

It just depends how expressive or emotional one person is IMO.

[Sumaleth]

Ahh, the age old question.

My take on it is this; I don't think we're born with any talent. The idea of being "gifted", in my opinion, takes away from all the hard work that goes into being good at something.

Our early life certainly has a long-lasting effect on how good we are at stuff later on. If we grow up to be someone who is patient and commited, then that will help us eventually become 'talented'. Likewise, an early and strong interest in something will go a long way towards making you talented in that area later in life, simply because you start practicing early.

I think a lot of people mistake the benefits of early experiences - and how they effect a person - with the concept of being gifted. And in a way I guess both systems are actually quite similar - you have little concious input into how your early experiences develope your personality after all.

Row.

[edible snowman]

Yeah thats about what i thought too. I think that some things are obviously genetic, such as things i struggle with in sports such as jumping ability. Some things like artistic talent are less easy to tell if they are genetic or not. But regardless, I remain that anyone can be good with practice. The thing is, the big factor in practice is how you do it. There are plenty of people that draw more than me that slap cartoon faces on little blobs and think they're good. I like to think I make an actual effort to learn to draw better, that is to me what is most important of all. Anyway, I hope PAQMAN will give up on his excuse now, ok PAQMAN. You are now exposed :P heh. And also ratt boy or whatever your name is, you are the most talented rodent i have ever seen. If thats a self portrait you look like kevin bacon with glasses on, but its good.

[Paqmann]

Haha i read all these posts, being like "YAH im gonna break in and say "ITS MEEE!!!"" then you had to reveal me.. well I have to say that's what I've heard from basically everyone, about the whole practicing thing. But I'll stick in my scenario anyway.

Ever since I was about 5, ive been drawing. Up till about age 10, all i had were like the usual child scribbles... some could be appreciated as "innocent art" as I believe someone in this thread has talked about. But.. in like 5th and 6th grade, i had this good friend named eric (koffediblesnowmankoff) who could draw these like little cartoon guys, and decent little dragons and knights. I'm like, this is soo cool. Much better than what I can do. How long has he been drawing? Since he was a little kid. So maybe we're just even. I leave to another school, come back to that school 3 years later. He's got pretty cool character designs, web site designs, etc... far better than anything I ever have had. At this point, I'm drawing around the same goofy cartoons that he drew in 5th and 6th, just BARELY getting the basics of art. And he says "well I practiced." Alright, in the 3 years I've been gone, I've gotten art books, gone through about 5 sketch books, doodled all over EVERYTHING off of as much reference as I could, etc.

And I suck. I can't imagine that THAT much of drawing is Practice.

So say we have two people who just start out.

Person A: has what I call "talent". Within months, this person can accurately capture forms and colors that he sees onto a piece of paper- he's not great, but he has the basics.

Person B: has no "talent." After a month, is STILL stuck doodling little characters that don't look that great, can't master shading or colors.. etc.

You all have to admit that there are some people that get stuff like that and some that dont. Where it really gets down to practice in MY mind, is when you have a basic grasp of art.. THEN that makes a difference between a .. say, ediblesnowman (no offense at all) and a.. craig mullins, for example. Major practice difference. See what I mean? (BTW i respect all of your opinions.. this is just mine)

ok thats definitely enough.

-matt

[Dthind]

Far be it to burst anyone's bubble, but (in my opinion) artistic ability is 100% inate but wasted without practice.

Again, in my opinion, the art you create is emotion, environment, motivation and circumstance.

[Duckman2]

I think it's more of an issue of how well you are able to forget your left brain and slip into the right brain mode. For some it's very natural, but for some it takes a little more coaxing but if the person loves the process then they'll become decent at drawing from observation. The people that naturally see in the right brain mode become incredible. The people who can draw from their head have an incredible capacity for storing past visual input and extrapolating it into a 3d illusion on paper. Of course this like everything else takes practice. The more you do it correctly the better you get.

[Duckman2]

Also, I disagree with the comment about anyone being able to be as good as spooge or fred flickstone, they have the right kind of brain for the work, and some people don't have quite the same caliber of neurons that these fine folk do.

[Goldwaser]

I've thought about the subject quite a bit before i decided to adress the matter but i trully feel this is a matter of great importance.

Coconutmonkey mentioned earlier a certain artist named Leonardo Da Vinci, lets use his example.
Da vinci, in his time, competed with another artist- Michaelangelo(sp). the both were bitter rivals and there even was a contest to determine whose the better artist. Leonardo lost.
Leonardo could not won because he wasn't [b]talented[b]. Da Vinci spent his life learning how to draw, analysing every little aspect of life. Trying to bring his drawings to a degree of perfection (he hasn't completed a single drawing in his entire life).
Then, a cocky young artist appeard claiming to be a better artist. Michaelangelo was gifted. He had the ability to capture the very essence of life in his drawings and sculptures. He was a better artist.

As mozart and saliery, this wasn't a fair fight. Life isn't a fair fight.
I draw a lot, yes, i've improved, but that little mark of talent, that thin line that
seperates the talented from the untalented is there. I can see it in every drawing i do and in every single aspect of life.

So why do i keep on drawing?
Because i love it... I will never create a magnificent masterpiece or even a drawing thet i will be content with but it's mine.

Sorry for the last part, but i think its important for some of those who will read this. There will always be someone better then you what ever you'll do (even if you practice a whole bunch). It's your descicion if it would be something you love.


Hehe, it turned out quite long. I've been in this forum since march and all i got are missly 10(?) posts. Guess i'm shy...

[Digital Freebaser]

goldwaser:
"(he hasn't completed a single drawing in his entire life). "

Uh.. how do you mean this? I mean, do you somehow seperate the Leonardo paintings from drawings or something or did you just forget about Mona Lisa, The Last supper and so on and so forth..

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Johan Thorngren
http://www.trinisica.com

[Periadam]

Honestly, I think it depends on the person.

Using myself as and example, I have, like many of you people, been drawing for as long as I can remember, but I'm also pretty young (16 to you curious people). But still there are many people my age I know who have also done that, and at the risk of sounding concieted, aren't really at my level for some reason.

It also could have something to do with a child's upbringing. I know that in my case my mom bought me and my older brother many MANY pencils, crayons, markers etc. along with a huge amount of paper all the time. And now both he and I are fairly good (heh heh, people say I'm better ) Maybe other who didn't have that same encouragement wouldn't have developed as quickly.

Of course, it also works for the argument that it's genetic. My mom is a very talented painter and she could have passed that along... but then it might also be because she taught me to draw (nothing formal, only through example).

So... I don't think there's really any answer to this question unless it pops up somewhere in the Human Genome Project.

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<:=:Periadam:=:>
Seperato nos ab veritate

[Periadam]

Honestly, I think it depends on the person.

Using myself as and example, I have, like many of you people, been drawing for as long as I can remember, but I'm also pretty young (16 to you curious people). But still there are many people my age I know who have also done that, and at the risk of sounding concieted, aren't really at my level for some reason.

It also could have something to do with a child's upbringing. I know that in my case my mom bought me and my older brother many MANY pencils, crayons, markers etc. along with a huge amount of paper all the time. And now both he and I are fairly good (heh heh, people say I'm better ) Maybe other who didn't have that same encouragement wouldn't have developed as quickly.

Of course, it also works for the argument that it's genetic. My mom is a very talented painter and she could have passed that along... but then it might also be because she taught me to draw (nothing formal, only through example).

So... I don't think there's really any answer to this question unless it pops up somewhere in the Human Genome Project.

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<:=:Periadam:=:>
Seperato nos ab veritate

[Goldwaser]

Digital Freebaser: All of those were never completed for Leonardo.

[TheMilkMan]

I did not read all the other posts but I will give my own view on this..I was going to post something like this awile ago but did'nt..anyways

I will use X vs TheMilkMan
as an example

I have a freind that I work with that is just 22..( same as me ) and is a pro game artist. He can not only draw better then me but he was a pro animator when he was 19. He can also 3d model better then me and he can even oil paint and use an airbrush..he has also done pro comics. I on the other hand have done some pro comics but nothing of his calibure. I started drawing when I was 16 after reading an issue of spawn. He started drawing at 18 after he found that he could do perfect caricatures of his college elective art teacher. He quickly leanred airbrushing and then moved onto comic book coloring with photoshop and then 3d modeling. when I was 18 I was being rejected at comic conventions for my lack of color sense and ability ( you need more practice kid ) was the general consenseous.

This is just a short example of the fact that talent must exsist ... in the smae time that it took me to just learn 3d modeling and get good enough to make textures and start drawing he has learned and masterd many many more art techniques and easily leans new things when they are presented.
I personaly believe that he is simply more talented then me ..the same way that no matter how much the third string guy on the bulls practices he will never be Micheal Jordon....

[Ben Barker]

There is such a thing as talent, but it holds less sway then experience. A basketball recruiter could find some kid in the ghetto running circles around his peers, but if that kid never goes pro he will never be as good as someone with less talent who practiced.

People in general think art is all talent. Ask people, they will say "I just can't draw".
That's bullshit.
If you can write you have the control.
Would people sit down in front of a piano for the first time, bang out one note, then just quit and say "I just CAN'T play music". No, of course not.

Art takes practice. But it just so happens, that in elementary school some kids have a little more talent than other. Those kids become the "art" kids, and they practice and pursue it, and get better. Meanwhile, everyone else just thinks they absolutely can't do art at all, and they stop and never get better.

I've seen people who can't draw for shit learn how to render in 4 months. It's pretty incredible.

[AliasMoze]

I agree, Ben. The truth is that the practice comes in many forms. It's the mechanics of sitting down and drawing, yes. But it's also the act of looking, of breaking things down into shapes, tones, etc. in your mind. These are all part of the process of learning to draw. Some people naturally acquire or partially acquire some of the base skills by accident. Then, when they go to draw, they seem to pick it up faster.

Recently an interesting study came out that sort of relates to this. It involves overweight people and genetics. The overweight people would swear up and down that their condition was because "my mom is overweight" or "it's in our family." The study concluded that heredity contributed to about 10% of the problem. The rest was environment.

I think the same is true of artist abilty. To say that it's mostly environmental is not to say that you have to be in an "artistic" environment. There are many subtleties, and I think it comes down to certain mental processes.

[Speve-o-matic]

Drawing isn't purely about the act of drawing. It's also about the mind set that goes behind it. This seems to be neglected by a lot of people I know. They sit back and doodle their lives away and have no real structure in their approach to drawing.

Of course it's not only about having a structure behind the method, but this can be a very influential factor in those "We started drawing at the same time but now I'm better than my friend" situations. I think that that is a horrible way to measure ability.

I also see many people mentally limiting their potential. If you think you are never going to be as good as Craig Mullins, you never will be. How hard has Spooge worked to reach the level that he is at. Maybe not as hard as others, and maybe much harder than others. Same with Mr Lemen.

Some people do have natural abilites that will aid them at being better artists, quicker. If someone has an incredibly good memory, it is that much easier for that person to draw anatomy correctly after a short period of studying it. The average person will just have to work that much harder to achieve that kind of ease.

Concerning Michaelangelo and Da Vinci . . . Michaelangelo wasn't half the scientist or the engineer that Da Vinci was. Perhaps if Da Vinci focused purely on his drawing and not science, engineering, biology and drawing, he may have been deemed a better 'artist' in this competition. They were both incredible though.

- Steve