[S4Sb]

Which comics did chapel actually do?

[Chapel]

"Chapel" is the name of a comic book character created by Rob Liefield. "Chapel" was a weapons specialist who killed his partner Al Simmons. (sound familiar?) Well, Al Simmons died.. went to hell.. and became SPAWN!. (Todd McFarlane creation). Chapel then killed himself and took over hell in a big Image crossover. He was a bit of a loon... like me.

As for me.. I haven't done any comic books and I probably wont be doing any comic books. I'm going to do a small 6 page preview for an independent company, but afterwards I'm going to concentrate on something else.

That is if you were asking about me? If not.. disregard this message.

[kombosagi]

quote:

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Originally posted by spooge demon:


Is there any chance that this style could find a home? I could tighten and finish it quite a bit, but before I do I wondered if it is a wasted exercise.

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I like that style, I don't think enough colorists are using it, but it definately gives the picture better texture, and an overall more gritty, realistic look. keep-it-up

kombosagi
"wun-sik-puppy"

[kombosagi]

quote:

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Originally posted by spooge demon:

I could see a pencil and Inking of this level being destroyed by a paint over like this. .

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That's catch 22 really, coz the pencillling is something you don't want to overall, but at the same time we shouldfind a pace for this style of coloring, coz it definately brings something to the table

[Ragnarok]

Do you know about "El Mercenario"? It's a spanish "one man" comic. It's made by an artist who makes each "tile" (what's the word?) as an oil painting which he resizes when finished to fit the space, but each original one is a whole painting. And the story was pretty good. Maybe I will search for some images later

[Chapel]

Frankly, just to take a jab at this from another angle. Colorists do not get payed enough and are not respected enough to put this much effort and style into comics. Unless you do everything then it isn't worth it IMHO. Like I said before coloring is considered more of a production process than a creative process at some companies.. meaning as long as it is in color they are pretty much happy.

kombosagi: You just told Craig Mullins (spooge demon) to "keep-it-up". Do you know who he is? Kind of like telling him he will be good one day.

[This message has been edited by Chapel (edited January 25, 2001).]

[ValzArt]

Ragnarok: the word is 'panel', and I agree with you about your example, but what about Richard Corben ? (Den, Bloodstar, Arabian Nights), or Tim Conrad or...
Spoonge: comics needs a man like you!



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VALZ
http://valz.digitalart.org
[email protected]

[Akolyte]

SO MUCH CONTROVERSY!!! Hehe How did my topic spark this?

[::Dino::]

I don't know Chapel ... But it sounds to me like your not only down playing comic colourists' role in comics. i.e. Liquid!'s role in BattleChasers, but your own as well. You speak of a comic colourist's role so grimly, I'm suprised you continue to 'de-value' yourself by continually colouring the comic pages of others.
On a side note, as much as I respect and enjoy Liquid!'s efforts and contributions to comic colouring, I have long grown sick of just about every other mainstream comic colourist trying to bite their style. So much so, that I for some time have shyed away from mainstream comics in favor of more paint oriented work i.e. Frezzato, Gimenez, stuff like Gaiman's Sandman(Vertigo) and others ... I absolutely love Joe Mad's work but I think his work would come across even better if it were painted in a much more realistic, less bubbly style. I'm sorry if that offends Chris but that is truly my opinion. I think BattleChasers would benifit by some experiments in different styles. Excuse my language, but I'm fucking supprised there aren't more comics coloured using programs like Painter, or with Photoshop handled similar to Spooges style and work. Mainstream comics, and mainstream being a relative term, are simply that mainstream. Nothing more nothing less. And when they're gone the only people who are gonna care are the fanboys collectors who can brag about how they own issue one and how much it costs. It isn't about artistic impression or individuality, so much as making a few bucks by producing the same old beat em up story with the same old re-used, re-hashed art techniques. This not only refering to colouring but the pencilling and inking itself. It's the same shit and has been for nearly 70 or 80 years, since 'the golden age of comics' ... excuse me while I crack open the next X-men book and barf. Or Hulk and Thor 1200th issue or whatever.
Thank God for people who aren't afraid to be different. Who aren't afraid to try something new and who aren't threatened by a little change. Sometimes I think the reason why Manga/Anime is so popular is because they aren't afraid to tackle new issues, to try new story approaches. That and that their comics ACTUALLY END and don't drag on forever.
Oops, got a little of topic. Anyway all rants aside, I wish more people in the comic industry would have the BALLS to produce something worthwhile and different. Prolly the reason why comic's are slumping now or so I've heard.

[burn0ut]

preach it dino!

[CapnPyro]

I really think Liquid! Studios (is that their proper name?) has raised the bar of computer comic colors, as well as the Image guys, like Joe Chiodo and Steve Firchow (a fine painter as well) to name a few.

It sounds a comic that may appeal to you Dino is Echo from Dreamwave. Its a bit darker and grittier then your normal comics with some crazy special effects and coloring. It's more texturing in most pages then just colors, actaully the penciller and SFX colorist on it Long Vo posted here for a short while. heres one of the previews from their site, www.studioxd.com



and your other general whining and complaining, well. Blah.

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http://home1.gte.net/capnpyro

[This message has been edited by CapnPyro (edited January 25, 2001).]

[Flinthawk]

You know, in my little experience in following comics, I almost see those run of the mill comics as the 'minor leagues' where young artists get their shot at working for a big company, drawing characters they probably knew as a kid. This I'd assume would be great for the development of their own personal style, styles that go on to be the basis of fresh, new comic series. Again, I could be wrong but that's my perception so far.

Yes, it does seem that every Tom, Dick and Harry (no offense to anybody named that ) is out there emulating the Liquid! style but there are many students' art that ends up taking on traits of their 'mentors' work, even if they never worked directly with them. Personally, that's why whenever I take a break from the normal grind to color some cool pencils/inks that I'll try and do something different each time...to try and find my own style. But in doing so I end up basing it on those that came before me...I've come this far only by standing on the shoulders of giants...sound pretty close to a familiar quote? Forgot who said it and the exact words but I try to remember that when I study other art. Did other great artists become great without going through the basics of learning anatomy, perspective, composition, etc...before coming up with their own personal and recognizable styles? Those fundamentals of art were discovered by those 'giants' and paved the way for further discoveries.

So until the next major coloring trend comes along I'll be enjoying the one that's around for now.

-Flinthawk

[Awetopsy]

drool. Spooge Your work has taught me so much and now you have crossed my two absolute favorite styles.. yours and comics....

mebbe sometime Ill get enough courage to post some of my colouring...

yeesh.. Now all we need is Robert Bateman to join the fray...

-awe

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I think Im wearing out my CTRL-'z'
http://noelsart.cjb.net

[This message has been edited by Awetopsy (edited January 25, 2001).]

[synj]

whoa whoa, anime having something new all the time? I'm gonna have to disagree there, dino.

The only horizons being extended that I can see are the three new pokemon and the same looking girls with three lines on their cheeks with giant pupils that you cant tell the age of. I know its the style but I've never seen a more boring industry in my life.. every artist's style is almost exactly the same as the next from what I can see. It'd be almost impossible to try to describe a character's appearance from one of the many anime films and have someone actually know which one you're talking about.

Just wanted to say that as far as people daring to do something different don't blend well with anime from what I've seen.



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synj industries, inc.

[::Dino::]

Although this is off topic ... I thought I should comment on CaptainPyro's reply about the Dreamwave productions book Echo and quite frankly all Pat Lee's so called 'creations'. I and some friends of mine are probably the strongest advocates to Pat Lee's so called inspiration. We believe, the guy is making money by ripping off the work of anime artists . Before you Pat Lee fans start jumping out of your chairs I'll explain. This book Echo for example is fashioned, or 'inspired' as Pat Lee would like you to believe, after an anime feature by the name of Spriggan. Although not a complete ripp off like some of his other 'creations', close enough nonetheless. It seems each and every book to come out of Dreamwave so far has some how been 'inspired by' an anime. Starting with Darkminds(Ghost in the Shell), Another book, Neon Cyber ... That's a rip of Akira. His Warlands ... which is a blatant rip off of The Record of Lodoss War, which absolutely felt like he directly stabbed me and every other true fan in the heart. Lodoss War being my all time favorite anime series!!! And I've already mentioned Echo. This is the worst crime in comics I've seen to date . It even pains me more to know Dreamwave is based in Ontario. I will not purchase anything Pat Lee has ever worked on again. I have already given away any Pat Lee books I may have owned. It absolutely disgusts me to even look at a Dreamwave book . Besides, all the books suck in everyway anyways, in art, colouring, writing you name it. And I'm not saying so because I'm bias against their work or anything, the artist who works on Shidima is pretty good, but other than that they blow. In my opinion of course

I'm sorry if I'm starting to come across as a raving lunatic. It's just the way I feel. I'm really a very kind hearted person as I'm sure most of us 'sensitive' artists are, which I find delightfully interesting and disturbing at the same time

[Edit: Forgot to mentions I like Long Vo's pencils as well and repaired some typos and such]

[This message has been edited by ::Dino:: (edited January 25, 2001).]

[Magpie]

WOW!

For someone who doesn't collect comics anymore you souund very passionate about the subject. That's a lot of emotion(or dispassion) for someone who thinks the medium is hackneed and pathetic. I for one think you've made some interesting points, but I think your comparison to MANGA is way off base. I've been familiar with Animae and Manga since the late 70's, in the crappy american imported style, AND in it's original versions. Even the 1st runs of popular live action shows(Johnny Socko, Kammen rider, etc. etc.) And followed the stuff through Robotech, bubblegum crisis, Iczer, Megazone, and all the way up to now...escaflowne, evangelion, Furi Kuri. This stuff is as much formula as american comics...some even more so. I enjoy it, but most people make the mistake of thinking that because mainstream Japanese entertainment can have more "Adult" themes that they are somehow on the vanguard of innovation. Not necessarily so. It seems different here(because it's not instantly familiar), but you should read some japanese reviews of their own products. They're often times looking for something a little different as well.(We only get their best stuff for the most part as well, just think what we may think if we got ALL the Manga titles produced in japan...I think we'd be a little more critical)

But really I'm responding as a colorist in "funnybooks" and I don't know about Chapel or how he really feels about coloring, but I do know that every comic colorist on the planet isn't "biting" liquids style. Liquids style is unique. You know almost immediately if it's a liquid book, or if it's not. Like any other art related business, people emmulate quality work. But most people who are "artists"(they do work in the field) try to develop their own styles. As far as using painter or more painterly techniques in comics there's a time factor involved, and also technical issues involved. It would be nice if whenever an artist tried something new, the public would buy it right away. But that's not the case. Many have tried, most fail. Even some of the most respected books on the shelves normally don't sell. It's the same in almost any entertainment field. People DO NOT line up to see "Sense and Sensibilities", they line up to see "Armaggedeon". That's just the way it goes. If you want to make a living, you try to please the masses, and if you're lucky, add the kind of substance that you'd like to see in your own artwork. I'd love to see a book painted in the style of sargent, or Mucha, or velazquez, but they don't really sell. But that doesn't invalidate Artists like Joe Mad, or J Scott Campbell. I think saying that just because it's an artform that's been essentially the same for decades that it sucks, is like saying that people who play Jazz Standards suck too. I'd like to think they don't either.

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Magpie

[This message has been edited by Magpie (edited January 25, 2001).]

[McSteed]

windbag

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Chris the Great
www.mcsteed.com

[::Dino::]

Some of what I had written may have been a little hastily and without an over-abundance of consideration ... I guess I was in a bit of an up roar at the time, so if I have offended anyone I'm truly sorry.

Magpie: Although I wasn't around in the 70's, I have had the pleasure of viewing many of the anime from the era as well. Mainly many of the super robot anime. I completely agree with your views on the anime/manga. There is as much formulae invoved with many of the anime and manga series as there are in the North American market. At the time it may have slipped my mind but I do recall reading similar reviews about many productions in japanese entertainment, media and hobby magazines. But I still feel, that on the whole there is more innovation in terms of story telling in the manga(japanese comics) mainstream, then our mainstream comics. As for the comments about painting and the anology to Jazz, I don't hate our comics or think they 'suck' ... I simply feel that the seemingly high selling comics are usually the least deserving. We have some absolutely wonderful comicbooks coming out of N.A. unfortunately, although they get critical acclaim, it doesn't neccessarily reflect in their sales records.

Liquid! indeed has their own style and I have always enjoyed their work but I do feel there are way too many people trying to 'emulate' their work, just as I feel there are too many Joe Mad clones out there. Although it isn't a neccessarily a bad thing to emulate your heroes I simply feel that it's more biting than any sort of mentorship. People like Roger Cruz for example, should be ashamed of themselves. It is not as if this type of thing hasn't been seen before, Jim Lee created a similar craze, many great artists evolved and produced their own style, others similar to Roger Cruz in many respects I've never heard of again. As in every opinion anyone has ever decided to share, this is simply from my point of view/perspective and your free to agree or disagree as you like. I am not a stubborn person and I value the opinions of others ... So please, if you disagree with me, don't be afraid to let me hear your side of things, you may just change mine

[Ragnarok]

Here I am
I have found a good web about El Mercenario, I hope you like it.
http://www.segrelles.com/
And here it is an image from the web:

[Liquid!]

Warning *** This is really longwinded. Be warned.

Ya. Call me windbag.

Dino, you�re hitting quite a lot of topics that I feel are very important. It�s also that I just read Craig�s comments on the Digital Arts Discussions forum about how he took all his tutorials down [ http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000217.html ].

quote:

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Originally posted by : ino:::
I don't know Chapel ... But it sounds to me like your not only down playing comic colourists' role in comics. i.e. Liquid!'s role in BattleChasers, but your own as well. You speak of a comic colourist's role so grimly, I'm suprised you continue to 'de-value' yourself by continually colouring the comic pages of others.

Actually, while I can�t speak for Chapel, he isn�t really off target when it comes to the overall value that the average editor puts on coloring. You may or may not agree with it, however the reality is that coloring is still just viewed as putting some color onto some black and white art. Is that going to change any time soon? Should it even change? I don�t know. I guess it really just comes down to fans reacting to well-done (including the coloring) and badly-done comics with their �dollar� votes.

On a side note, as much as I respect and enjoy Liquid!'s efforts and contributions to comic colouring, I have long grown sick of just about every other mainstream comic colourist trying to bite their style. So much so, that I for some time have shyed away from mainstream comics in favor of more paint oriented work i.e. Frezzato, Gimenez, stuff like Gaiman's Sandman(Vertigo) and others ...

Funny. Me too. I really truly wish that people would strive to develop their own artistic outlook and interpretation of the world around them, rather than steal someone else�s wholesale. Don�t get me wrong, inspiration is fine, however there is a fine line that most often crosses into �theft�, especially by those claiming �inspiration� most fervently. There are precious few true artists that take inspiration and transform it into their own artistic voice.

As Craig (spooge) mentioned [ http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000217.html � read this to know what I�m talking about ] , this cuts into the artists income that is being copied, but also as you mention, devalues the medium as a whole. Who would want to see EVERY book drawn by their favorite artist or colored in a particular style? Half the fun is seeing different interpretations. However, the �artist� that is copying someone else will NEVER admit to this and I�m sure in his/her own mind insists that his work is VERY different from the artist being copied. He would also not stop copying just for the sake of the artist whose style he�s running into the ground by making half-assed cheap imitations of. Afterall, why care about someone else, when you�re really just worried about yourself? And it would be too much to ask, for him to consider, that he is slowly but surely murdering the medium from within. Expecting thought of this magnitude and scale, for the greater good of a medium from these individuals is hopeless.

What am I saying? While I can�t appeal to those that are already doing it or have no moral qualms about doing so in the first place, I hope this will serve as a small voice of conscience for those faced with this very question in the future who may be reading it now.

So when you�re tempted to copy someone�s style in the future. Don�t. You�re robbing yourself and the rest of us of your own unique vision.


I absolutely love Joe Mad's work but I think his work would come across even better if it were painted in a much more realistic, less bubbly style. I'm sorry if that offends Chris but that is truly my opinion. I think BattleChasers would benifit by some experiments in different styles.

Not offended at all. We�re already discussing different ideas. However, they all pose different degrees of problems.


Excuse my language, but I'm fucking supprised there aren't more comics coloured using programs like Painter, or with Photoshop handled similar to Spooges style and work.


Personally, I would love to see it! I think you�re right!


[stuff deleted that was already commented on]
That and that their comics ACTUALLY END and don't drag on forever.


Well, for what its worth both of the stories we�ve come up with have definitive endings for just that reason. Then again, some may argue that is a GOOD thing�


Oops, got a little of topic. Anyway all rants aside, I wish more people in the comic industry would have the BALLS to produce something worthwhile and different. Prolly the reason why comic's are slumping now or so I've heard.

Well, this may not be just an issue of �balls�. And trust me, none of us go out an say, gee let me do exactly what everyone else before me has done.

I recall a conversation with Joe Madureira, when he was deciding on what kind of project he wanted to do. He told me that he wanted to do a fantasy book, and that everyone he told the idea to, told him that he was nuts! Afterall, the highest selling fantasy book until then had been Conan � the Barbarian.

Yet, Joe took an amazing gamble. May not sound like it now. But it was.

Mike Mignola is doing Hellboy. An excellent book � definitely different. Other examples are Sin City and Stray Bullets. Not saying that you don�t have a point, but there are plenty of guys taking risks, and doing something different.

Just my thoughts.

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[This message has been edited by Liquid! (edited January 26, 2001).]

[::Dino::]

Thank you, Chris. For your understanding and honesty. I was interested to hear how you would react to my comments and I'm glad you understood my intention. Before I continue ... Hellboy rocks! Anyway as I was saying, I really do enjoy your work and I love the fact that Soul Saga and E.V.E. have storylines that travel and that are apperently going somewhere. It truly feels as though you have stories to tell and your taking all the neccessary steps to do so. As for my comments on a change of style on BattleChasers ... I'm glad your talking to Joe about trying different things. You have proven in previous posts that you have the talent to bring even more of yourself into you colour work and I know you can add some new and exciting elements to the book and your colouring in general. I truly feel by showcasing even more of your painterly abilities you'll seperate yourself from the pack that much more. Seperating the men from the boys, painters from the posers if you will. Try as they might, no one has been able to dupplicate your style as of yet and probably never will, but I feel you could do so much more and possibly gain more of the respect you so rightfully deserve. Colouring is an art form and it dissappoints me to hear your employers don't regard it that way. As for the 'biters' who should probably be called 'copiers'. I've noticed people like that don't seem to survive very long, once their ten minutes of fame are over, their careers dissapate and they seemingly dissappear like 'one-hit-wonder' popstars. As I've already said, their projects will long be forgotten just like the hundreds of other meaningless books that have come and gone, and never had any real profound meaning or even lasting enjoyment. Sooner or later, it'll turn up again, waiting to be found, many years from now by some neurotic fanboy at a garage sale, the very last copy; of course because everyone already trashed theirs years ago, and he'll make $4,000+ dollars off of it. While true gems, comicbooks or anything for that matter that truly inspires you, will be kept close to your heart for the rest of your life. I'm sorry, but I'd much rather produce the latter.

P.S. I'm a poet and don't know it

[SporQ]

bravo dino. i have to agree with every one of your posts. i wish there was more for me to say, but you said every one of my gripes with comics already

it's really sad to see all the fans gripe about not having any quality comics, and yet see thier dollars go to the drivel. something's not adding up.

also, i am with ya on the "ban pat lee" wagon. he's ripped my 3 favorite anime and i for one, will never buy his books. he's just too blatent in his theft.

man, i wanna keep bitching, but i know it's not very productive, so i'll close with saying that i love what you have done for the comics industry liquid. you have made people look at the colorist in a different light. i hope the innovation you've spawned can infect the rest of the comic world.

let's make this an art form again.

SporQ

[Chapel]

quote:

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Originally posted by : ino:::
[B]I don't know Chapel ... But it sounds to me like your not only down playing comic colourists' role in comics. i.e. Liquid!'s role in BattleChasers, but your own as well. You speak of a comic colourist's role so grimly, I'm suprised you continue to 'de-value' yourself by continually colouring the comic pages of others.[B]

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Just to make myself clear. I think colorists add just as much value to a book as the penciler, writers, inkers, and everyone else. I'm not the one who is degrading the value of colorists.. it is the industry. For the most part only artists like the ones who frequent this forum can see this. Common fans, writers, editors.. I don't think they get the importance of colors. In case some folks haven't noticed.. I haven't colored anything in a while. The ironman pic was really for my own enjoyment than anything. Also, I never said anything in regards to Liquid's style. I observed it but never tried to copy it as my only means to color.

Just to share a little information. I was put in touch with the art director for WildStorm studios. We had talked here and there and they asked where I lived. I live in Florida and they are on the other side of the continent in La Jolla, Ca. Not much was getting accomplished until I spoke to Laura DePuy. I asked what Ed the art director had said. Laura told me "Brian's so qualified to do anything out there, why in the world would he want a _____ [fill in the blank: thankless, heartless, low-paying, unrewarding, etc] job as a colorist at Wildstorm?". This is from the art director. She then went on to fill me in on several other things and ended with this "If you've thought all these things over and weighed them very carefully, and you still want to be a part of Wildstorm and take the pay cuts and accept the hard hours and thanklessness, then let me know, and I'll email Ed and tell him that we talked." This was a shock to me. I never considered the fact that coloring would just be considered as a production process and not a creative process. Then I started looking at other books and then Marvel started a bidding war on the coloring jobs (another story).

In any case, I myself will be pursuing working in the games industry in the near future. There is really only one other comic company I'd want to work for.

[This message has been edited by Chapel (edited January 26, 2001).]

[Magpie]

: INO::

That's super cool man. I was hoping to keep the tone of my response not too crabby or anything like that. I just thought that the world of printed entertainment is such a complicated thing that things can't usually be narrowed down to "all this is bad", and "all this is good". And there's always a lot of really hard working people everywhere trying to make their mark in any industry, and it's pretty hard to change things, or to stand out



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Magpie