[Gimbal8]

The Stork

I was so touched I had to share.

[Awetopsy]

hehe... I figured It would be something like that.. Ive seen Nina Paley's stuff before.

[[Shizo]]

It's true..

[Returner]

Is it a celebration of mankind or is it the opposite?
Anyway it's beautiful.

[Nilwort]

hahahahha! It's sad but true...


damn babies...

[edraket]

quote:

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Is it a celebration of mankind or is it the opposite?

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It's a celebration..thats why directly under the movie it says this:


Are homo sapiens capable of living in balance with the rest of the biosphere? Most humans consider our species the pinnacle of evolution, our big brains rendering us capable of solving any problem. Yet we are destroying the very ecosystems that sustain our lives, not to mention the lives of every other species. Are we the "ultimate resource," as Julian Simon once wrote, or merely "a bunch of stupid monkeys," as Rev. Chris Korda believes?

It's beautiful? Er...I don't think that was quite the reaction she was looking for.

[Returner]

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It's beautiful? Er...I don't think that was quite the reaction she was looking for.

Yeah your right, I looked at her site a bit more. And her favorite site is www.vhemt.org.
And she actually seems to belive strongly in their message.
Somewhere deep down inside I guess they just want to get some attention.
They could just have easily have choosen "to protect" some threes in California. But I guess they just try to find some meaning with their lifes as the rest of us.
And if they care more about plants than mankind when it really matters, well then they are just fanatics and nothing more.

[edraket]

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Somewhere deep down inside I guess they just want to get some attention.

Well you are damn right they do. They have a message that they want to tell. Part of telling a message is getting attention.

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They could just have easily have choosen "to protect" some threes in California. But I guess they just try to find some meaning with their lifes as the rest of us.

Well thats what they are doing. They are protesting against what they see as the root of the (the trees)problem. And I can't say that I disagree.

If you see this as being a fanatics opinion well thats your right. Just as they will see you as ignorant.
The earth has a fixed size and the number of people on it is growing faster and faster.
If things continue like this the world, at some point, will be full and we will be in deep shit. If people are speaking up about that I'd hardly say they are fanatics.

[tyron]

sure is a sick world we live in.
i don't want to be part of a society like that.

[Returner]

Wow edraket where do all this fury of yours come from? Have I offended you?
You quote a part of an argument and ignore the rest of it. It's very convinient yes

If you pay a visit to the site "The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement" http://www.vhemt.org./
You will see that they have some strange values in their life. They are just one step away from becoming dangerous really.
Now they are asking people to stop breeding because the "gaia" must be restored.
The next step might be killing people for the sake of "gaia".

What you should have quoted was:

quote

Quote:

And if they care more about plants than mankind when it really matters, well then they are just fanatics and nothing more.

If they are faced with an option to choose between killing a plant and a man they might choose the man. (depending on how brainwashed they are, and if they know the man in question)
But I also know that most of the people that are in this movement are just in a phase, and nothing more.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[Gimbal8]

Returner, I understand where you are coming from and I'm sorry you feel that way. But the closer humans drive themselves to the edge of one extreme (over-population) the harder people are going to want to steer in the opposite direction (population control). People are just that way.

Ever watch the Secret of NIMH? The rats eventually became smart enough to know that they were stealing, and that it was wrong. It is that power of self-examination and the ability to change that is alarmingly missing in most of the population. I don't worry about fanatics voicing their concern about something important. But I am worried about people who don't see the problem at all, or just dismiss it as some invention by a bunch of extremist that have nothing better to do then call for reactionary measures and ask that everybody go extinct, or however you want to view it.

If a 30 lb rock rolled up next to you and spoke "1 + 1 = 2", you might be inclined to dismiss it since 30 lb rocks don't talk, much less move around on their own. But guess what...1 + 1 still equals 2. You can tell the rock its behavior is unacceptable, but you can't say it was wrong.

[Returner]

I hear you Gimbal8, I understand your point. Im open for your views.
But when I first entered that site I just got mad that they don't use their time helping people/animals in a direct way instead of just pointing out this "new" problem.
If they want to make a difference they could help sick people/homeless/etc.
But alarming people of overpopulation isn't what I would call creative/helping.
So much SHIT is happening in the world that I just cant DEAL with "intellectuals" that debates subjects like this on their free time and consider it to be the biggest problem ever. When they could be out making good instead.

That doesn't mean im neglecting the problem.
The ozon layer is important for future generations yes.But somehow I think the technology will come up with a solution to this problem. And you can't expect people to start to change their behaviour if there isn't a good alternative to their present situation.

Remember that we have a whole galax to populate. I dont think mankind will kill himself in pollution until the space technology is good enough for advanced space travel.
Maybe in nuclear wars but not due to pollution.
There are more urgent problems than overpopulation. Atleast for the people that post in the sijun forum

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[edraket]

I am sorry returner. I am not angry. Merely vehement. I have been thinking a lot about this problem. And encountering a lot of ignorance in people.
So sometimes I get like this. It's stupid. As you can see Gimbal pretty much makes the same points in a friendlier fashion and actually gets you to think about it instead of feeling attacked and getting defensive
I wise lesson for me.

I was assuming that you realized that the vehmt site is none too serious. Their message is clear but the way they bring it is more like a parody.

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So much SHIT is happening in the world that I just cant DEAL with "intellectuals" that debates subjects like this on their free time and consider it to be the biggest problem ever.

I can completely understand that. Yet people have been in a power struggle as long as they existed. There is always a war going on somewhere, poor people and hungry people exist..yes.
But to a lot of people this seems a small problem compared to the fact that we are rapidly destroying the very earth we live on.
Just take a look at the greenpeace report that came out last week. According to their researchers, in fifty years, we would need twice the size of this world to sustain ourselves if we continue in this lifestyle. And I doubt another world just like ours will magically appear in outer space.
This is not about some tree or otter. This is about billions of people dying of hunger.
If people speak up about that it is out of goodwill. They are trying to do something positive in the way that deem best. That is a lot more than most people do. And I think it is quite arrogant to tell people what they should spend their time and energy on.

quote

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And you can't expect people to start to change their behaviour if there isn't a good alternative to their present situation.

Do you really think that there are no alternatives? There are so many simple things people can do that make a big difference. All people need to do is take a few hours reading about it and afterwards consider the impact of the things they do and consume.
Taking a train instead of your car, or eat meat in more moderate proportions. Often it is even as simple as just buying product A instead of product B.
It's not that the alternatives are not there. People just don't want to see them.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: edraket ]

[edraket]

double post.. very weird

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: edraket ]

[Gimbal8]

Returner, I think we can all agree that there are many problems going in in the world. There are quite a few of us who believe that many of the problems wouldn't exist if it wasn't for over-population, so fixing multiple problems all at once by getting to their source seems more efficient then trying to widdle away the problems from the outside.
That's probably why some people will focus their energy trying to get the message across about overpopulation instead of feeding starving children in some part of the world. It is hard for some people to put their time and energy into efforts they feel won't solve the problem.
For me it is like watching a zombie movie where the protagonists keep shotting at the zombies everywhere but the head and I'm yelling at the TV, "No! In the head you idiots! Shoot them in the head!", but they can't hear me and the zombies just keep coming until the people are out of ammo and they get overrun.

I can't say feeding starving children isn't helpful, but it isn't effective problem solving.

"Remember that we have a whole galax to populate. I dont think mankind will kill himself in pollution until the space technology is good enough for advanced space travel. Maybe in nuclear wars but not due to pollution. There are more urgent problems than overpopulation. "

I really wish we could leave Earth (we will need to eventually). But how will anyone justify spending all that money on space programs with starving children, homeless, etc etc etc? That is one of the reasons space programs take such flak.

Anyway, just for fun, here is anotherwebsite you might enjoy.

[Chest Rockwell]

Ted Nugent has planted over 10,000 trees with his bare hands!

[Returner]

I agree with you to some extent gimbal8 and edraket.

Edraket:

Yes you made me belive you were really pissed of,hehe.
Well about the arrogance I have to agree with you And I also agree that most people discuss these things passionatly because they are afraid of reports of worst case scenarios in a not so distant future.
And I guess I haven't been so understanding as I should have when It comes to that.


Gimbal8:
But if you look at the fact of the situation: Most starving people (if not all). Live under the rule of a non democratic government. And if they dont they probably did until just recently.
I'm saying that what we should focus on instead is to make people think about the horrible conditions many people in the world lives in, and make them think about whats REALLY causing it. And it's not overpopulation that is making them hungry/sick.
To care about that and put more money/resources to sciences like nanotechnology/genetics are also good. Why??
Cause then we can make superseeds/meet that grow themselfs extremely fast.
An alternative to gas and oil is good to.
These are the things we should put our resourses on.
Do you honestly belive that it matters for starving people if we in the western world becomes vegetarians/take the trains/put laws on childbirth??
It makes some difference yes. But it doesn't help people that are dying.
We have to attack the problem in the root.

If we doesn't help these non democratic (to become democratic)countries it wont matter if we in the west are using cars/factorys that is pollution free. Cause these countries will still use old machines/cars that do pollute.

And if you see overpopulation in the industrialized countries as a problem then I cant convince you
You have to belive that our science will reach new levels. And until then it doesn't matter if you take the bus instead of the big station wagon to work. Cause the majority of people WONT stop using their cars/computers/etc because of some far away threat. Especially not when the U-lands are pumping out oil/pollution without any restrictions whatsoever. And why are they letting out pollution without any restrictions whatsoever?
Because they want to live a good life. They dont have the money to do it any other way. Cause their country aren't as developed as ours. If you are a poor man in Kenya you wont hesitate twice to pollute some lake if it will make you rich and bring you and you family out of "real" poredom.
And he is allowed to pollute the lake beacuse their country has a bad government/situation. Do you see where the root is now?

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[edraket]

quote

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Cause then we can make superseeds/meet that grow themselfs extremely fast.

I am sorry, but...
The seed production is controlled by a few really big companies. They have created genetically engineered seeds that will only grow with a certain fertilizer. Which happens to be the one they sell. Does this sound like helping the starving countries to you. Well no..they are forcing them to pay more. Thus increasing the amount of starving people.
And it doesn't stop here. They are now working on seeds that are sterile. Which means that they only grow into plants that don't carry seeds. With this they can force those same poor farmers to buy new seeds yearly for their whole crops instead of the small amount that they need to add to the seeds they collect from their own crops.
So as you can see gentech is not the world savior those companies want you to think it is.

Instead people should just stop eating meat. (Or just eat less) The same piece of land can yield up to 15 times more food through growing crops then through livestock. Now THAT makes a difference.

[Returner]

Thats better!
Now you are actually adressing some issues.
If the seed production is as controlled as you say then that is something people should care about. BUT to become vegetarian don't really seem to be the solution here.
But gentech IS the savor. Do you think that a major revolution in genetic would only be available to the biggest companies forever?
Gentech has saved hundreds of millions of lives sofar.
And I know this fact to:

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Instead people should just stop eating meat. (Or just eat less) The same piece of land can yield up to 15 times more food through growing crops then through livestock. Now THAT makes a difference.

First of all there will never be a change until there is a good alternative. (it's the market speaking not me)
Secondly you dont seem to know just how useful gentech and nanotech can become.
But it's good that you are adressing a problem instead of dreaming. Now im being arrogant I know sorry...

[Gimbal8]

Returner: Foolish me. In an attempt to make sure you weren't mistakenly looking at population control as some fanatical idea I may have instigated a hair splitting debate, the kind I try to avoid sine they can suck up so much time when I could be drawing.

I may have mistakenly used starving people as an example more then once and made it seem like I was trying to say that population control will solve that and every other problem. I was merely trying to illustrate how population control is a viable solution to a variety of problems. Doing studies with bird populations who's numbers are controlled through predator-prey relationships or resource limitations I began seeing the bigger picture of the impact population has in an ecosystem.
But as with any problem, there will never be one single solution to everything. Just because the promise of technological advances may help out in one area doesn't mean population control wouldn't still be helpful.

"Do you honestly belive that it matters for starving people if we in the western world becomes vegetarians/take the trains/put laws on childbirth??"

I have no idea what that statement was all about. Perhaps you are saying that I feel we should all be vegetarians, take public transit and have childbirth laws based on my previous posts or something? Well, no matter if those are my opinions or not. Perhaps we disagree on what the root of the problem is, or where on the root we should focus our efforts. I'm ok with that. I honestly don't feel the need to be right about what approach everyone should take to solve the worlds problems, so please excuse me if I don't follow up on some of the points you made. I don't find them particularly faulty or anything.

I'm just wondering if you feel population control is an invalid idea or of no practical use. It almost seems like that is what you might be getting at, but unless you type those words I can't be sure.

And I would also like to point out so there is no confusion, that just because I am defending the idea of population control as a legitimate measure to levy against a variety of problems, it doesn't imply that I am against the ideas you are proposing or any other ideas that people might have.

I personally would advocate science and education as the chief weapons against most any problem, but your faith in the promises technology holds seems a bit on the carefree side and it sets of red flags in my head wanting to warn you not to count the genetically engineered, pre-plucked chickens before they hatch. But maybe I've grown pessimistic over the years while I was waiting for the future that was promised to me by so many articles I've read in years past. I should just be happy that you are pushing science as answers instead of prayer.

Anyway, I'm going to ride my bicycle home and bust out my pencil and paper made from 75% recycled post-consumer product and draw something that won't help the world one damn bit. Muaha-ha-ha-haaa!

[Returner]

Sorry gimbal8 those coments about taking the train/vegetarians/etc was directed at edraket not to you. I forgot who said it.


Ok I just interpreted your:

quote:

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"so fixing multiple problems all at once by getting to their source seems more efficient then trying to widdle away the problems from the outside.
That's probably why some people will focus their energy trying to get the message across about overpopulation instead of feeding starving children in some part of the world"

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As if you thought that overpopulation in itself was the source to these problems...thereof my talk about the "roots" to the problem.
I just thought it was a simplification of the situation, thats all.
But you explained that you've always been open to many solutions now so thats good

quote

Quote:

I'm just wondering if you feel population control is an invalid idea or of no practical use. It almost seems like that is what you might be getting at, but unless you type those words I can't be sure.

Yes I think it's of no practical use, yes.
And you find the arguments why I think so in my last post. And what I think we should do to improve the situation instead.I thought that was pretty clear. Shit that could be interpreted as if I'm an english snob or something, hehe. (I'm not)
Yeah I understand know that you were probably just trying to make me see why many people likes to see easy solutions to a complex problem. But you said "quite few of us" so I thought you included yourself among that group. I wish I had a motorcycle....I only have a vespa

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[edraket]

Geez..I don't even know where to start...

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You have to belive that our science will reach new levels.

So who controls science? The big companies. And what do they want? Money.
Do they care about anything else..like say...ethics? Nah.. mostly not. (Although it works quite well as a marketing tool so sometimes it is good to make up some stories about how we are trying to save starving children)
Look around you. You must be aware of the fact that a company is not an ethical institution. They are meant to make money.
Not exactly something you should depend on to save the world.

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until then it doesn't matter if you take the bus instead of the big station wagon to work. Cause the majority of people WONT stop using their cars/computers/etc because of some far away threat.

Ah..it's that argument again. If other people don't do anything it is pointless for me to do anything because it doesn't make a difference.
I know a lot of people think that way. It's just like people that don't vote because their vote won't make a difference. They hide behind the masses. Ignoring the fact that they are an individual with individual responsibilities.
But to think that they can't be turned around is a mistake. People are mostly just sheep. You just need to turn around the one at the head of the flock.
And there are lots of people that do care. And that group is growing. For instance take a look at Denmark where the new government cut the funding for many environmentalist organisations. This was immediately followed by a huge growth in volunteers and donations. People do care.
My wife works in a "green" Mall where they only sell products that where produced in an ethical way. Concerning both the environmental as the humane aspects.
People buy there. It's always busy.

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If the seed production is as controlled as you say then that is something people should care about. BUT to become vegetarian don't really seem to be the solution here.

I think it was quite clear that in my post I brought up vegetarianism as a possible solution to world hunger as opposed to gentech. Not as a solution to the problem that gentech is being used as a power tool.
So I am assuming you are saying here that vegetarianism cannot be a solution to world hunger. Maybe then you should elaborate on WHY it cannot be a solution instead of just dismissing it without further argument.

You also seem to think it is the poorer countries that are responsible for most of the pollution. I can see where you are coming from with that but you need to realise that the industry those countries use is often nowhere near the size of that of western countries. Or it is there as an extension of the western countries industry .
Pointing at others as a reason not to do anything is, again, wrong. People as well as nations have their own responsibility.

quote:

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Do you think that a major revolution in genetic would only be available to the biggest companies forever?

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Oh no of course not. The local farmer will go to the bank, get out his savings and build himself a 20 million dollar lab.
Actually it will be available..at a high price. Do you really think the big companies will just give away their freshly earned monopoly?

quote

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But it's good that you are adressing a problem instead of dreaming.

I suddenly got it. I am talking to a 12 year old!!
Do I need to remind you that you were the one talking about space colonisation as a realistic solution to overpopulation? Tsssk.
Or spouting bullshit like this:

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Gentech has saved hundreds of millions of lives sofar.

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Who are you trying to fool here?

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: edraket ]

[Gimbal8]

[scratches head] Man, I just don't have time to explain this to death or try to clarify all kinds of things that are misunderstood (I mean, even the non-issue stuff like 'bicycle' seems to be interpretted as a motorcycle. )There is nothing more I can say that wouldn't require circumnavigating your ego, returner. And I fear it will turn into something ugly if I try.

edraket: I may have tried to explain this in a non-offensive way, but I think it only served to make him feel like he is nothing but right. Perhaps your approach was more correct then mine after all. lol I think you and I know how this debate with him is going to drag on so please excuse me if I bow out to persue more productive pursuits. Some people are just right about things, its too exhausting to try to explain to them otherwise.

Hope you enjoyed the movie everyone, have a good night. Drive safe. Come again.

[EviLToYLeT]

i thought that was a stupid movie... i really did

[Returner]

Edraket:
I sense that you and Gimbal8 wont be convinced by logical arguments (I can see you frowning infront of your screens now).
First of all the talk about science. You seam to belive that there is "evil" in the world. There is no such thing as evil. There is egoism and hunger for profit, thats all. So take these companies that makes aidsmedicine in africa as an example. At first they were very reluctant to lower their price on aids medecine for the biggest group of the affected in africa.
But people/goverments MADE the lower their prices. Cause they realised that their hunger for profit were going out of hand. It was imoral. And people started to notice it. Therefore they had to lower their price on aidsmedecine in africa. So that they wouldn't be forced by goverment/people. (dont remember if they actually were forced by goverments its possible)
What is the meaning of this shitty argument you may think??
It is that we people can affect these big companies, they arent as untouchable as you may think. Remember that we live in a democracy which is changing constantly. YOU can affect big companies. (sabotage is not what I mean )

And you say that I'm lying when I say that gen tech has saved millions of lives.
First of all we can take all the medicines that gen tech has produced, aren't they doing any use?? just because you haven't had a disease doesn't mean that all people are 100% disease free.
Then we have the improved crops in the world. And THAT my friend HAS saved millions of live from a death caused by starvation. If I remember correctly it saved 20-40 millions of live in some asian/middle east country. They were able to get more harvest when "we" gave them new improved seeds (I think it was seed could have been rice etc)
If you say I'm making this up I WILL CHECK IT OUT. But im tired and have only slept 5 hours so I'm not in the mood for it. But if you still doubt me I promise I will.
Actually that would be very satisfying for me, you just give me the opportunity!

quote:

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I think it was quite clear that in my post I brought up vegetarianism as a possible solution to world hunger as opposed to gentech. Not as a solution to the problem that gentech is being used as a power tool.
So I am assuming you are saying here that vegetarianism cannot be a solution to world hunger. Maybe then you should elaborate on WHY it cannot be a solution instead of just dismissing it without further argument.

You also seem to think it is the poorer countries that are responsible for most of the pollution. I can see where you are coming from with that but you need to realise that the industry those countries use is often nowhere near the size of that of western countries. Or it is there as an extension of the western countries industry .
Pointing at others as a reason not to do anything is, again, wrong. People as well as nations have their own responsibility.

---

Regarding vegetarism I have explained why it doesn't work. It is the market that rules. What we CAN do is give the poor countries education/make them become democratic/etc. But say for example that all people in the western world would stop eating meat.(which would only happen if there came to be some supermeat that grows itself/quorn etc)
Do you belive that big companies in the western world would "give" seeds to the poorer countries for nothing in return?
Only if they wouldn't lose money on it. If they lose money they will not. It is as simple as that. And NO they are not "evil" they are just trying to make a business. The market rules.

Regarding the fact that we In the western world are polluting more you are right regarding the CO2 at least. I dont know about oil leaks and such. I do know that Russia has leaked out MASSIVE amounts of oil. But it might be matched by the western countries.
But anyway my point is this: We should center our efforts to help the U-countries become I-countries (or atleast democratic and stable, which in turn will give an increase in bmp etc) which in turn will help the world to become more safe/productive and finally more enviromentally in the end.
But of course it is good if you take the bus instead of the station wagon. But does it matter if you look at the whole picture?
Nope it doesn't. What we should do instead is to pressure the car companies/oil compan�es to research for some alternative fuel with less pollution. THAT is a effective way. But as I've said it is the market that rules. BUT we can affect it. But taking the bicycle instead of the car/bus just seems to be the wrong way. If you think it's the right way. Please enlighten me with some rational explanation that is doable. Not some dream like: that everybody should destroy their cars and walk everywhere instead.
About me being a 12 year old I dont really agree,Im 19
I at least try to motivate my arguments all the way instead of just complaining without giving a reasonable alternative. And you know what I mean when I say reasonable.
Remember that I agree with you that we should try to change the world. We are just arguing about HOW we should do that.

Gimbal8:
Netpicking about a motorcycle is just cheap.
And NO!, you wont circumnavigate my ego if you stick to pure arguments instead of personal assult like the one mentioned above. Do it the ugly way if you cant do it with arguments..but It wouldn�t take ous anywhere though.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[edraket]

Gimbal..I agree. There is no point. I will now join you in your productive timespending activities : )

[Returner]

Have I convinced you then?
I considered writing something like that myself edraket. But I figured I must be wrong in some aspect (no irony) of my argument. But do my argument hold up that well so you dont even want to take a stabb at it? Was it so inpecable? I seriously doubt it. But guessing from your reaction you had no better one yourself....or?
I think this post only will be answered by silence.
I've wasted time trying to persuade people who dont wants to continue a debatte after they have started it. Yes you Edraket!
Was this all just a waste of time? I think all your arguments were based on pure feeling, no deeper thought in it whatsoever. Prove that I'm wrong in case you think so!! instead of running away without commenting on anything I've written....thats very weak really.
Cmon!!

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[edraket]

Returner..there is no point. I cannot have a normal discussion with someone that just makes up facts to prove his points. There is no logic to your argumentation. That last post..I couldn't even really follow what you were trying to say anymore.
So if you want to consider yourself the "winner" of this discussion... be my guest.
I was doing this to help you understand something and maybe get some wisdom in return. Not to prove you wrong and be the "winner" of this discussion.
Since the above has been proven impossible I will leave this thread alone. And you can, in fact, consider yourself the "winner" of this thread.
Actually I feel kind of foolish spending 5 minutes typing this and actually seriously reacting to your post because I have the strong feeling that you are just playing a game with me and trying to do some sort of humorous parody of a retard.

[Returner]

Yes my last post where I encouraged you to reply was filled with irony/kliches yes.
But which fact has I made up? I feel really stupid replying to a person that doesn't seem to be able to grasp a simple text. But I think that you dont WANT to even consider what I've written. It is much easier to say that I'm nuts eh? Im just stating the obvious here...after reading your last posts. It just feels bad to have wasted this much time in arguments when you dont even try to reply or understand anything I'm saying. Instead you write that you think I'm stupid and a liar.
That is usually things people who dont have any arguments left turns to. So I guess you agree with my arguments at least on a sub conscious level. No mocking edraket it's just low. Reply to my post instead. That's what this forum is for. ok?
If there is anything in my text you don not understand, say wich part and I will deepen that argument for you.
[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[Nilwort]

I think we should all just bake nice tastey pies in our spare time...

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PIES MADE OF NEVER-ENDING LOGICAL DEBATES!