[g.owen]

[gLitterbug]

[Ranath]

if you think you've won, you could be at least a good winner and be mannered, instead of letting the shit throwing to begin at those who dared to doubt your talent.

[g.owen]

Guys, I am sorry. Don't take my strong comments so seriously, OK. This is smack talk, right? Joking around, right. Sure it gets out of hand sometimes; but we are adults and can bring things back to reason, right? To be honest, I find humor in a lot of the comments that have been hurled at me...even what glitterbug has told me (that about going to hell with sadam).

Maybe I have a strange sense of humor, but I find humor in the comments made. I really liked those comments from octavian - "...before you go there, we're not demons, temptresses, nor products of the devil...". I can't help it, thats funny to me. I am not offended by what some of you guys say, it is your intentions that offend. You are trying to hurt me with words. But the words don't really hurt. The words end up kinda funny. Admitt it. Look at my last post there. Read it again. Its kinda funny.

And glitterbug....I don't mean anything by my comments. Just having some fun here. And you should not hold it against me, because you said more extreme things than I did. And you are right, I don't know what you are going through. I hope things work out OK. In line with that thought, you don't know what I have gone thru lately either. My wife and I just lost our baby. That is why I could not respond with quick uploads of art samples. So, if you are going thru hard times, I am sorry and I hope things work out. And if my comments added to your problems. Sorry about that.

Here is the reference photo for the picture we started with. I claimed the light was accurate because I thought you were talking about the lighting on the box. Look at my reference (used cardboard with foil on it) see how the light glares off. And the light on the front of his robe is being reflected off the box, thru the robe. I think the problem is not the lighting, but the shadow, or lack thereof. I still consider it a finished picture though. I think if I add shadows to christ it will diminish him as a focal point, considering all the glares on the box and the white temple top. What say you?




SEE PARTS I, II, AND III
Poetic and symbolic. Realistic sequential art.
http://home.windstream.net/themessiah
Pass your cursor over the pictures of the page;
each page as some hidden commentary.
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[eyewoo]

So sorry... but this thread is getting tedious... or like a car wreck that you can't not look at.
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[gLitterbug]

[Ranath]

[g.owen]

Thanks for the input. I guess I will go back and try that. It is in my art program in layers. So, I can adjust things with relative ease. Maybe I will add another layer for shadow (a warm gray, or brown?), and just place that layer over it and set to multiply.

But to be honest, a good artist may find little things like that in just about every picture. I hope to correct the biggest, most glaring mistakes - you know, the kind that cause the viewer to disconnect with the art. This may be one of those type errors.

And does the foot really look like it is floating? how to fix? .....if you have time.
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[octavian]

I thought I was Zen enough to stay away, but I have to agree with Eyewoo; this IS a car wreck...

and btw, I have to point this out:

[g.owen]

[Exoudeous]

dude, any way you look at it. you still arnt drawing itself. copying images from graph paper is a skill kids use in like 5th grade, its not hard to do.


the method you are using is no different then tracing. you are not creating you are copying and makes the images lose any soul they could possibly have.

If you took the time and learned how to draw, and made this all by hand without copying from a graph and puting your own personal touch to them they would look 10000000x better even if they don't look as realistic. If you wanted it to be so real without actually drawing, why not just use the photos? Thats legit as long as you took the images yourself.


You came here for input, and thats what you get, that is how I think you would improve, If you don't like that, I'm sorry but we cant really help you any other way as copying isn't a skill. I have nothing against you, and I doubt anyone else here does either. But when you ask for advice, and then you lash back. its just lame. Especially because when you started posting you made it sound like you drew everything yourself, which clearly isn't the case if you are using a grid.
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[octavian]

Dear Mr. "you're still missing the point": It's not an exact match because the areas that don't match are where you've created them yourself. For instance, the hands are ten times better than the face of Jesus. This is simply because you're not practiced enough to actually draw the face with the same skill as the photograph allows you to copy in other areas.

As for the rest of the imperfections, those might be where you couldn't see through the paper well enough to trace the photo better.... Get a light box if you want really kill your "art" and have more "precision".

Furthermore, I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has used graphic lines to copy and old master drawing for study... but I dare not show them because they don't show any artistic talent and they are completely boring. Although I haven't tried this, I'm sure if I dug them out, scanned them in and compared them to the original drawing, they still wouldn't match up exactly, like 90% of your's does. Even if you did the drawing in the method you so diligently insist upon, SO WHAT? it still looks like a glaringly obvious photo-manipulation to everyone here... and THAT should mean something to you, something more than having to validate your skills to us.

If you want to see an artist who has utilized the photograph and Graphic line approach to create neat paintings and drawings, look up Chuck Close's work... he uses the same approach you're claiming, but he made something awe inspiring because he changed the end product... that is to say he didn't use the reference for the end product, but merely a "jumping off point".

The Crit I've (we've) really been trying to give you here is that there is nothing wrong with your professed approach to creating images... its just that they are completely static and boring... and if that is the look your going for, then why don't you just do photo manipulation work? Or better yet, take photo manipulation to a whole new level... Look up Jason Felix's work at http://www.jasonfelix.com/ and maybe that will give you some new direction.

This is the BEST crit I can give you. Take it or leave it.

*Edited out the attitude for tact's sake*

[trainwreck]

edit

[octavian]

Who was that masked man??? I wish I could have said it so eloquently. Thank you sir. I myself will add your words to my digital library of knowledge.

G. Owen, I wanted to add a tutorial for you to look at as well. Go to: http://www.imaginefx.com/02287754333284419776/gothic-beauty.html

Jason Chan is the type of artist that is probably not to your liking, but nonetheless, download the pdf, you'll see that he has very good advice about creating images. Particularly his line regarding references: "Try to avoid copying directly from the photo, but use the forms and observations to make your own work look better. Don't be a slave to references. They are tools for learning and understanding, not to be copied.

Good luck.

[g.owen]

I am not a professional artist. Did not go to art school. I am a probation officer by trade. Let us all remember this about the drama going on here - it was NOT my inappropriate comments that got the last thread locked.

I agree with you about the graph paper and photo reference. But understand I am trying to learn some things. I like to draw, always have. Here is some samples of stuff before this project.

I was going to do a comic about angels. Here is a concept for fallen angels � I will not bore you with the details�



I am a big Highlander fan. This is in watercolor, on water color paper (thick � can�t trace). I outlined it with pen.


photo copy of ball point pen


It all sucks!!! I was not happy with the art. What you see now with the Tempt the Messiah comic is my 5th comic. I wanted to try something different. So, I did � in hopes that it would improve my art a little. Now, I go to forums and try to learn from good artists as well.

I have been honest. If I am guilty of anything, it is poor communication and insensitivity. And if I have sinned in some way, the blood of Christ covers that. All I can do is say sorry and move on.


EDIT: Wow, Trainwreck is deep. Seems like he is an artist and a poet. Thanks for bringing some sophistication here - something I could never do

***inspired to go back and edit out my attitude as well!!! Well, most of it. Took the question as well. also removed the picture that sucked the most -ITS EMBARRASSING ME.

OK, LAST EDIT: Those pictures that suck are so big. Swapped them with the SAME PICTURES, just much smaller The idea of this post was to show you why I use the process that I use, so I put up bad pictures. I did leave out the worst and put a picture up that I think is OK (the last one) - I know it still sucks by professional standards...
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[Jimmyjimjim]

Well, on the bright side of things, look at it this way:

Not many of us have gotten 44 replies on ANYTHING we've posted. Admirable for a first thread!

[Exoudeous]

I like that stuff more because you actually drew it. Yes they are lacking, but that can be changed by not giving up and keeping at it.

You want to learn, thats how you do it. grid paper will do you more harm then good.

Personally i think drawing are all the more better when they have a good mix of style. Never really digged anything trying to copy reality exactly. So I probably would have not liked your comic even if you had drawn it by hand.

also I agree with jimmyjimjim I have made more posts in the last week then the last 2-3 years.
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[octavian]

g.owen, first off.... thanks for being a probation officer... Lord knows it can't be easy and I respect that in you. Secondly, thank you for posting your early concepts.... and NO, they don't suck. They are underdeveloped, and perfectly normal for any beginning artist. As trainwreck so eloquently put it, the skill will come with time and understanding.

But from here, we can GO somewhere... We can talk about what's not working and give you room to improve. I can see why you've been working so closely from photographs... But go back to your first thread and read what Mikko K pointed out to you about the lens distortion in photos.. wrap your mind around that.

it's frustrating to start out and want things to be a certain way, but then a lack of skill won't allow your vision's to come through. Believe me, we have ALL been through it. It's like first learning to play the guitar... you pick out some seemingly simple chords, or tab music and start to pluck away, but all you hear is *buzz* *buzz* (maybe a note comes through) *buzz*.... and so on. It's VERY ANNOYING. Then when you get enough calluses on your fingers to avoid the buzz, you can't really write good songs... out of desperation, maybe you pick up tab of some of your favorite songs and play them until you "master" them... maybe you learn 50 songs from past masters.... But unless you are really intuitive or take music theory classes, you'll still be unable to write those "good songs". Hopefully at some point you'll question the significance of always copying, never really creating, and begin to absorb the proper knowledge... Art is no different my friend, and THAT is what everyone here is trying to tell you.

But it's all good. The great artists out there will assure you, as trainwreck did, that it comes through time, understanding, practice, and patience... and seeing as hard headed as you are, I'm sure you'll get there

Lastly, there are a bajillion links out there to tutorials and resources. Use the search function on the forums to find them. Ask, have patience, participate, try and not be too defensive, and you'll get to where you want to be. Study past masters, go to art galleries in your area. Actually, most art museums anywhere will have the potential to inspire you to leave that close copying behind.

[Freebooter]

Yeah those pretty much suck. Infact I think you're beyond salvation when it comes to drawing, mind the pun. You better stick with tracing photos and doing whatever you need to make those comics.

Yet again I have to wonder all this hostility in the thread. Do people really care that much to get all agitated over someone who is clearly an amateur and just comes here to try the ice?

Edit: Damn I was too slow. Now everyone else above is making amends and it, well, kinda takes the bottom off of my post.

[g.owen]

group hug?
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[Exoudeous]

I declare this a Kodak moment.






now go draw
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[eyewoo]

very entertaining, and unlike a car wreck... no one's been killed...
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[Mikko K]

Trainwreck has some wise words in there.

I only wonder his identity (worthless_meat_sack revisited?)

[Matthew]

hmm I sometimes wonder about the precious Sijun mentality and the crits that comes with it.

What you guys critique is somehow what you have been told or learned from this place, or maybe another place. So, what is so evil with tracing when in the end you seem to look for realism? in the end it is based upon real life, rules of gravity, light and anatomy and this reallife painting also becomse coyping. What makes reference usage or reallife more credible than tracing? Sure u say the experienced artist knows his way and what to look for in a picture or from real life and after countless of hours he becomes good at making his copy from the material.
//ok here's what I am thinking, the artist who's getting good at working from life or reference becomes his own enemy because if making perfect he also is coyping, this to me is just as worse as tracing.
Where's your own ideas in your painting?
Where and why is the painting more valuable if you have not overtraced?

Maybe this you answer too with saying that the artist adds something of his own in his painting, but the thing he adds is based upon rules of the previous mentioned. Then again he is his own worst enemy cause then he think he is applying his own style which is based upon from something, from somwhere.
Face it! we are all xerox machines and I do not understand why you still bug down on people who trace, you are not any different. Unless you bend the rules? But with this is a danger and I have experimented with it. Hmm maybe my philosphic thinking can answer something in the future, but perhaps not cause I have learned most of the time there are no perfect answers to anything.
/I posted this to give another view about this topic.

g.owen, keep it up and keep looking for what motivates you with your art.

I think abstract these days so maybe it is a useless to post something like this in here but it is boring to see the same critiques over and over again.
btw one more thing...
..I was gonna type about subject matter here but then I came to the concusion to leave it be. I have this evening with internet for myself here in school and no more wasting time on things like this.

have a nice weekend people
Matthew

[Tomasis]

ahh it was just nice Fuji moment lol

[g.owen]

Forget the technical feedback. My idea was to have artists help me correct the glarring mistakes that cause the viewer to disconnect with the art, or pin point any parts of the sequential art that are hard to read/follow. But, I think that may be a waste of time.

Maybe I will do the introduction part (John the Baptist and Jesus at the Jordan River) in pencil, with photo reference, but no graph paper or tracing tricks ....or somthing. I don't know yet. Maybe I will just do it in pencil (black and white).


___________________________________________
In the meantime. Say I go to an art forum and start a thread. I post a picture and link. And I say, "Check out my comic."

Someone from that forum goes to the site and checks it out. He then comes back to the forum and says: "Look's like photo manip."

I respond back: "Well, I guess you could say that. To make the characters, I took photos, printed them on graph paper, and then drew them in pencil on blank graph paper. I then colored/painted them in my art program. The backgrounds are edited photos."
___________________________________________

Am I safe? Can I use that word, "drew"? Or is it better just to say "copy"? I can't expect Trainwreck to follow me around and bail me out of trouble you know.
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[Exoudeous]

[octavian]

[g.owen]

Since no one answered my question, I will answer it for me.....because it occured to me after I posted that.

I will say, "I utilize drawing, grid drawing, and tracing to derive at my pencil work." Then nobody gets hurt.
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[Exoudeous]

Thats fine and all. But my point still remains. It just doesn't look all that good.

Take the fact that many kept on asking if you were "cheating" as to a clue of peoples opinion on your work. When something looks good, it just looks good, regardless of how it was made. and what you have been making doesn't look good even if you had drawn it from your own head.

You came here for help, and thats what I just gave you. If you want to keep on doing what you are doing, then why post on a forum anymore?
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