[cheney]

I am sure this is by no means a full reflection of the CGtalk forums, and this is not an opinion of those forums or its moderators.

I have noticed that a great many people at CGtalk are extremely emotionally sensitive about everything they read from other artists. I certainly mean this in an arrogant matter relating entirely to getting hired into the movie/game industry. Let me be more specific with some examples:

I have heard several people before in the IRC channel state certain others will never get a job because of their conduct on the forums as though the CGtalk forums governs who Sony or Midway hires. What is worse is that these individuals are arrogant regarding this behavior and gossip. I have seen this several times.

Secondly, I recently read a forum post there where people were ready to crucify some guy who published opinions negative about a Sony, his employer, product without leaking any information or violating his NDA. They were praising the firing of this guy for voicing his opinion. I thought this rather extreme since the guy did nothing ethicly or legally wrong.

I kind of get the feeling, from these lurkers of CGtalk, that the CG industry is a cold dark place where you will be fired at the slightest hint of making some forum troll mad. If you don't get fired from your job then perhaps some army of online wannabies will protest and whine until you do get fired. Perhaps I am viewing this a bit extreme, but really are people in the CG industry really that emotionally sensitive. Do people really go home at night and cry on a pillow because a child was caught trolling on a forum? Is it because the CG industry is so overly saturated with hopeful artists who would sell their soul, right eye, and left testicle for a chance to clean out the trash at a game art studio? Or, am I seeing something that is not there?
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[balistic]

There's a reason you don't see a lot of the most-experienced artists engaging in spirited discussion on high-traffic boards like CGTalk. They swing by and talk tech, but they've learned to check their opinions at the door.

CG is a tiny industry. There probably aren't even 1000 people with my job title in the entire world. It is important to guard your reputation, even if it means holding your tongue about certain topics. CG is close-knit, and if you get a reputation as a rumor-monger or a blabbermouth, nobody is going to want to hire you. If you're a jerk online, it stands to reason that you're probably a jerk in real life.

Look at how Spooge so rarely talks about anything outside of painting . . . the dude has opinions about other things, just like anybody else, but he's learned discretion. I wish I could erase a lot of the opinions I've put online since I was 13, but search engines have seen fit to archive them. Fortunately it's just embarassing stuff and not life-ruining stuff, but it's still there for anybody to see, and I can't do anything about it.

The guy who talked about the pre-release Sony hardware made a rookie mistake, and he obviously hasn't learned anything from it, because his follow-up interviews are just as full of information that shouldn't be made public.

If you want to be a professional artist, unless you are mind-bogglingly great, you have to be professional. Like a lawyer. Like a doctor. If your doctor started blogging about that extra nipple you've got in your armpit, wouldn't you want to find a more discrete doctor?

If you learn nothing else about business, learn discretion. If you want to vent, do it anonymously. As an artist, your identity is an asset that you should consciously manage.
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[Jimmyjimjim]

God forbid any employers look into what forums I've posted on (other than Sijun)...

TWO Iguana owners forums
A Star Wars action figure forum
A Transformers forum
The T.a.T.u fan club forum
IMDb
A bunch of software forums
The Donnas forum...

I'd look like the biggest dork on the planet.

[Lunatique]

cheney - unfortunately, as Brian pointed out, it really is like that. The older you get, the more you learn to keep certain things to yourself. I've been a very outspoken person for the past decade that I've been on the internet, and now that I'm 33, I'm already finding myself chilling out more compared to years ago. There's a time and place for speaking your mind, and you just have pick when and where that is. With that said, I'm still unusually outspoken by normal standards, and trust me, it's not really a good thing. If we're smart, we should all follow Spooge's example and find other ways to socialize without making the results public domain.

[Mikko K]

Oops I did it again. Well, I'm trying to avoid being an asshole.. Some recent events over CgTalk have made it difficult to me. But thanks for your insight guys, this is something I have to think about.

[Lunatique]

[Mikko K]

Thanks Lunatique, I appreciate your input a lot

It's really hard to objectively look at myself - I mean with the language barrier and all - sometimes it's hard to know how someone takes my humor because I understand it works differently in Finnish.

Do the big companies REALLY look at the forums so much? I mean, what Cheney said sounds quite horrifying

edit: Balistic, that makes a lot of sense.. thanks for posting.

[Lunatique]

[gLitterbug]

I wonder if this whole "professionalism" helps the industry at all. What it mostly seems to do is to cover up if someone fucked up and make bad behaviour look not all that bad, accepted even because "everyone in the industry does it".

It is understandable that voicing ones opinion always runs the danger of having someone disagree or offend that person, but it seems that this industry is just as fake as certain others are so often accused of being. Of course it is dumb saying the product your company is creating right now is utter bullshit, but I myself would not be able to look into the mirror, when I just smilingly gave interviews about how awesome it is going to be if I know in the back of my head how shitty it is. But then someone like Mikko here gets bad replies for "overreacting" when he just got ripped off and the poster acts like its all fluffy pink bears (overreacting my ass, it's not like he beat him up or shot him in the leg, all he did was show the world what bullshit was going on).

Sometimes I wish people like Craig Mullins, who are in every position to do so, would use their might to clean up this whole mess a bit. I, like so many others, very much respect Mr. Mullins and I think that if people like him would spread their wisdom more often and comment on wrongdoings and idiotic babblings coming from those people who are full of themselves without any reason, it would show the whole community and industry that it's not just some unknown guys from teh interweb who cry like little girls.

I guess it is too much to ask for though. Just look at all the games development "celebrities". There are only a few big names and some of them even have a god-like status amongst fans, but in the end most of them take it up the ass from some marketing guy or company politics because they are as affraid of being jobless as the next aspiring artist on internet forums. What makes me sick is when I hear people like Dave Perry who created classics and innovations like Earthworm Jim, MDK and Sacrifice, now voice out his opinions on how Enter the Matrix was such a good game and the reviewers just failed to see that because they were too "hardcore and focused". Is that was becoming a professional does to you?

Warren Spector, whom I respected much for all he has done in the gaming history, trying to create complex games that still are reasonably successful, seems to have been broken by all this industry shit too. Last thing I heard from him was when he praised how Deus Ex 2 was everything they aimed for and hasn't been changed and dumbed down forcefully to appeal a wider market(what made it bomb, not that it was really that bad, but compared to its predecessor it sucked and did not live up to any of the promises made). Right after that newspost came the message that he retired from the company. I bet it was too lovely, having all that creative freedom and being able to create something you are really proud of...

I doubt Richard Garriot is really all that happy about how it turned out for his life achievement Ultima either. Sure now he is the big guy for his new baby Tabula Rasa for NC Soft, a company that "gets it" as he said in a recent interview, but I feel ashamed how the gaming industry treats companies and individuals that made it big.

Without people like those the gaming industry would look pretty bad and if the only guys who voice their opinions and hush down others for stating the obvious are guys that use others art in their images 'caus its the way everyone does it, then I'm not sure I want to become a professional. It is one thing to flame someone and personally attack him below the belt, but just shutting up and letting it all pour down on you will help no one but the morons who shouldn't have much to say in the first place. Of course I can easily voice my opinions like this, because if I would actually get off my ass and start to apply at companies I would be too picky to work for a company who tries to suck the lifeblood out of me without giving anything in return for it, except firing me for posting my view on a message board maybe.

[gLitterbug]

Just read your last reply now Lunatique, about the jerk behaviour. I had the impression we are talking about voicing ones opinions here, which might be negative, but formulated in a cultivated manner. Someone being a totally rude idiot would prevent me from hiring that guy too, but that applies only if he calls other peoples names for no reason and tells them to fuck off etc. Not if he complains about someone ripping off other artists and acting like it is all good. Or about things like I just wrote in my above reply.

That nobody wants to work with an asshole is pretty much obvious in my opinion, but the problem I saw here is that it is rather the idiots who spoil your chance to get a job because you said something that offended them. A good example is when I am saying bad things about Everquest 2 Graphics, because I think the art and its direction is horrible mostly. Now I wouldn't think that Sony Online Entertainment's Art Director would hire me if I applied there, but would other companies do the same simply because I voiced my dislike for another companies work? To me it seems that not being able to critisize a company is like an artist who has no chance to get crits, in the end he will not improve if he gets stuck in the belief that his art is at its best level already and nobody daring to tell him otherwise.

[balistic]

gLitterbug: problem is, people move from company to company all the time. If a guy at Sony doesn't like you, and he moves to EA, he's going to take his bias with him.

That said, most companies aren't going to flip out over a reasonable critique of their products. If you make a good enough case for how you'd have done things differently, they may even approach you with a job offer.

The PS3 thing was so touchy because the product hasn't been released yet. Sony is trying to build hype and they're doing anything they can to squash rumors that will weaken that hype. In Sony's eyes, there are hundereds of millions of dollars on the line.

Now I hate Sony. I think they're an altogether despicable enterprise. But that's why the guy should have known to keep his mouth shut if he wanted to keep his job.

If you want to praise something, go for it. Nobody is going to fault anyone for that. If you want to speak negatively about something related to your profession, you need to either do it anonymously, or accept that there may be consequences.
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[Lunatique]

gLitterbug - I guess what you're asking has no definite answers. When expressing mere opinons in a civil manner, you'd think it would have no consequences down the line, but I can guarantee you that it would, depending on exactly what opinion you expressed and which company you're applying to. For example, you might say you really hated a particular game because the design was lame and the graphics sucked ass--particularly the character designs were just embarrassing. Let's say you apply for a job at a studio one day, and although that studio is not the one that made the game you hated, but the lead artist used to work at the studio that made the game, and he was the one that designed those characters. Let's say he was smart enough to google about you while trying to decide whether to hire you, and managed to find the post where you tore him a new asshole on his character design skills. It's wouldn't be hard to imagine that he'd be kinda upset.

I guess it's all about how much speaking your mind means to you. To some people, it's no big deal--they have other ways to vent their frustrations or spew their negative opinions--all done without leaving a trace in public domain. But for some people (you and I are much alike in this way), they feel that they need to say what's on their mind at all times, and to not do so would be "fake." I'm that way too, and I want to remain that way because I respect people who tell it like it is. However, you can't just go around busting balls as you please--people have feelings. So, I try to compromise by telling it like it is, but pick and choose my words carefully so that I can still get the point across, but without being totally raw and uncontrolled. I still lose it every once a while, but for the most part I think I've done a lot of growing up in the last few years. Particularly living in a country like China has taught me a lot of things--things I wouldn't have been able to pick up if I stayed in the States.

I think the line you shouldn't cross is if you go out and spew crap about a company you're working for--that's just survival instinct--you don't bite the hand that feeds you. However, if you're ready to quit the job and move on, or you feel the company has done wrong and you want to restore some kind of justice, then by all means, raise the alarm and quit your job. But if it's something as trivial as not liking the direction the company's going, or not agreeing with the design of the game you're working on, or in the Sony guy's case, saying that the PS3 isn't as good as the XBox360--then you gotta wonder if that's really wise or worth losing your job over. I tend to agree that the Sony guy was a bit naive. He didn't account for the fact that consoles wars are fought in multi-million dollar ad campaigns, and when an insider such as himself express publically that the competitor's product is superior--if that's not shooting yourself in the foot, I don't know what is. That's the kind of stuff you tell your buddies, not to post on the internet for millions of people to read. How he could not have known the competitors would have a field day with what he said?

Anyway, this is just one guy's opinion--I'm sure there are others who disagree and have valid points for doing so. Lord knows I've shot off my mouth in unwise manners before, so who am I to comment on such matters?

Edit: I want to add something about those big name designers you mentioned. I'm sure you know that the stakes are much higher now these days when it comes to game dev. The publishers hold the trump card, and they can make or break your life as a designer. Even big shot film directors need to bow down to the studios if they want that budget for their next film. Making a game or a film by funding it yourself is a very difficult and very dangerous thing to do--one slip and you'll be in debt for many years to come. This is why even big shot designers have to play ball--games is their life--their dream. They're cautious because they don't want to see it all go up in smoke. It's hard to understand how much they have at stake when you're looking at their position from your point of view, and nothing short of being in their shoes will make you understand. There's a Chinese saying that goes "It's easy for a man sitting in a chair with no back pains to criticise a man who's been standing all day working hard."

[gLitterbug]

Balistic and Lunatique, I very much understand your points there. I do think that you are right about the speaking your mind thing Lunatique, that is something very important to me. If I have to hide my beliefs and principles, I couldn't look into the mirror anymore.

I always try to stay polite and reasonable though, apart from outbursts of mild rage if the topic is a very hot one. But I think I never descend into the realm of dumb name calling, not that I can remember at least. So when taking EQ2 as example again(just cause I had a big discussion on that on some other forum), I can express my dislikes in a very civilised manner and with solid reasoning. I don't say stuff like "OMG this looks like ASS and the moron responsible for that should be hanged by his b0lls". But still I guess saying that the textures look like something a filtermonkey would make(or an artist that has no choice due very tight deadlines) could hurt someones feeling enough to not hire me. Or my views on the whole game development industry. But then I wouldn't act all surprised when finding a job will be hard. For the consequences I would be prepared, as I could't work under an art director I do not respect or for a company that I could not hold flaming speeches for anyways. The only thing that would be a disappointment to me is when a company would not hire someone simply because he/she is a real person with a backbone, rather than talent in a box that opens when you enter the workplace and closes once it's evening.

[lysander]

solid advice glitter, no doubt it will prove useful to me and others reading who may be entering the industry in the near future. cheers.
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[Impaler]

The first thing every young chef wants to do when he's or she's hired in a restaurant is change the menu. Maybe they think the ingredients are too pedestrian. Maybe they think there's too heavy an emphasis on fried items. More likely, they're just eager to show off their professional talents. Problem is, changing the menu isn't the young chef's job; in fact, changing the menu is a capital offense in the culinary world. The chef was just hired to make sure the onions don't get burnt.

In two words, it's about reputation and experience. Sure, the chef got a very rigorous and impressive education, and no doubt can come up with some amazing gourmet dishes. The restaurant, however, has been around longer than the chef has even been alive, much less his cooking life. The master chef's menu is time-tested, and every item on it has been cooked literally tens (hundreds, even) of thousands of times over. It takes a restaurant a long time (years) to build a good reputation, one that can only be built on a consistently high quality of food and service, time and time again. A young chef indulging his every whim (liver sorbet! star anise foam and foie gras! prickly pear sashimi!) can destroy that reputation in one summer. For the young chef, that's no big deal. The only thing at risk is his job. He can always get hired down the street at the rival joint. For the owners and master chef, however, their entire business is at risk. Millions of dollars worth of investments, decades of their lives down the drain.

That's why an unproven, inexperienced chef can't change the menu. That's also why a concept artist or texture artist or whatever can't supercede the art director or whoever else that outranks him. They're both cogs in a machine much bigger than them and with much more at stake then they have.

You want to shake up the establishment, critique tradition and standards? Great. Go into fine art. Cook your gourmet dishes in your own home.

Otherwise, you'd better to go into an industry (ANY industry) with a lot of respect for those who have done and accomplished more than you ever have, even if you aren't a fan of their work.
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QED, sort of.

[gLitterbug]

Running danger of being laughed at, I have to admit I didn't understand what you are saying Impaler. You always manage to make me feel dumber, thanks for that. To make up for that I have to note that it is written supersede with a S. (Don't forget kids, dictionary.com can make you look more clever and educated than you really are.)

[Tomasis]

With Impalers view, I'd say CG industry is like as McDonalds, BK, or whatever who make people fat offering fast tasty food.

Wife's or grandmothers cooking is like as fine art. LOL

[Drunken Monkey]

the industry is really small... its not accounting or software development. you shit in one well, and every other well will soon know about it. "oh yeah, its that guy"

i've gotten in trouble with my big mouth at school. i recommend you keep your shit to yourself - if you like to get employment that is.

be wise, internet is not anonymous.
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[eyewoo]

One doesn't want to mess with the free exchange of ideas and opinions on the Internet... but Drunken Monkey gives good advice.
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[Godwin]

Aren't there enough around here to... change things? I mean, if you guys think it isn't right or whatever.
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[balistic]

I don't know . . . I kind of like the idea of artists behaving like professionals. It means we get paid more, and receive more respect.
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