[Awetopsy]

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you want proof? Look around you!

this is just me rambling but its all facts, I�ve looked up myself...

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Actually Chaos is only a theory. Looking around you only provides evidence. Mathematics denies Chaos. Physics denies chaos. There may be chaotic elements to certain things, but that is speculation.

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...it was always there just in another form.

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By the law of chaos, he�s right!
Everything changes, nothing is eternal...

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??? what?!? "always there" and "nothing being eternal" seem to be two opposite ends of a scale.

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[xino]

chaos works as a theory sometimes..but sometimes it doesn't work...there are usually constants

on a side note : (since someone brought up the unlikeliness of life forming on earth) I find it funny that most people who believe science or evolution most of the time deny that alien life forms exist...but that's just from my perception and not from anyone here on this board...I just find that funny for some reason and wanted to say it

[SWANYDSPIN]

Personaly I dont believe in a god, but I still believe that everything and anything is possible, if you asked me if aliens exist, I'd say there's at least a 99.9% chance there is, most people cant get there minds beyond our solar system, once you start thinking beyond, then anything is possible no matter how crazy. think outside the square we live in!

[Shep]

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SWANYDSPIN: Personaly I dont believe in a god, but I still believe that everything and anything is possible

Pascaal's Gambal - The gist of the idea is that the one who opts for God (more specifically Christ) has everything to gain and nothing to lose. It goes like this: You start with two choices, either to believe in God or not to believe in God. The former yields two options. You either end up correct and get eternity in heaven or you never really find out because when you die you just cease to exist. Here you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The latter choice, that you choose to not believe in God yields two more options. You find out your correct, there is no God, you die and never get to find out because, again, you just cease to exist, not to mention your entire life up to that point has no ends to whatever means you chose to follow. On the other hand you could die and find out that you were horribly wrong, there is a God who you willfully rejected and you are fully sentient when you realize this and are rejected by Him.
Now I understand that this can't really be used as ones motive to have faith. You don't base faith on the best chance. However it can get some people to at least consider a subject that they might otherwise have passed off without a thought. And you SWANYDSPIN, said yourself that you do not rule anything out. Even now If I were to somehow choose atheism as a life style I would still have to spend my life reinforcing the idea that there absolutely positively can not exist, a God. I think there is no such thing as atheism in its definition. They are just misplacing their faith. If a human knew there was no God then they would in themselves posess a Godly quality, omniscience. Agnosticism is at least understandable no matter how foolish it is.

Some things about our universe: Scientists still theorize over whether or not the universe is infinite or if it has an edge, how elliptical it is or better yet how flat it is. So there is no definite eternal time set here (if your coming from a purely scientific position). It is not fact. Now lets also assume that your theory on the big bang is correct, regardless of what was before the big bang (the inflating deflating universe, whatever) it has only been 14-16 billion years since that theorized event. After the explosion it took some time before anything like stars formed, then came the planets and then those too had to cool down. This brings the time down a bit more, scientists say the gap between when the earth was cool enough to support life and the first emergence of is 400 million years.
Now consider the chance involved in having the correct conditions that are necessary to build the basic elements of life, amino acids into proteins etc (all coming about in that 400 million years). Add that to the kind of chance involved in those elements actually organizing themselves (by chance) to create continually more and more complex elements. For instance the chance involved in assembling a cell, you start with amino acids, 20 of 80 are involved in life. Of those are even more difference (like being left or right handed). These need to be isolated and then aligned correctly to be of any use, they need to be connected by specific peptide bonds allowing them to fold into 3d structure eventually resulting in a functional protein. A protein involves maybe around 100 amino acids, and then you still don't have life. 200 or so proteins with the right function are necessary for that. You get the idea right? Under the best conditions with the most abundant resources, the chance of one protein forming in billions of years is 1/10^60. I've read it described like the chance involved in dropping a blind man in the middle of the Sahara and having him find three marked grains of rice in a row.
Infinite or not, the universe isn't old enough to support these numbers.

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Shep ]

[REMM]

Ok, after reading this incredibly long thread I see that it has gone in so many different directions. I just a few things to add. Either way, god or no god, why are we here? A test? Why can't this test be performed faster by our god? Does he want to be entertained by our test? Seriously, no offence to anyone. I just can't understand why there would be a god to make us go through a "test" like this. I do not believe anything is possible. I believe many things are possible, some that I cannot comprehend, however an almighty god is not one of them. One more thing is, why if religion is true and we have stories of past encounters with godlike people and events do none of these events or people show up anymore? That to me is the biggest downfall of my faith. I believe that people made up these stories for whatever reason. On top of that I don't understand why religion doesnt like gays and lesbians. So what if they like thier own sex. They could be the most moral and upstanding person and some religous people would not like them. My point is religion is wrong for doing that. I think morals are better than any religion because religion has been wrong in the past and wrong now. Why does god care if 2 people of the same sex love eachother? What part of the test is that?
REMM

No harsh feelings anyone

P.S. If there was a god and a set of rules to follow him by, what makes you think we got it right? I will tell you I know we didnt get it right because nobody is perfect. I think that some people use religion too exact. I think religion was made because of the lack of morals that people had. It served as a structre to start from perhaps. I think it got out of hand over the many years it has been around. Thats all.

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: REMM ]

[wayfinder]

shep, you mean, god will reject me if i don't believe in his existence [in the way the church tells me to]?

[Shep]

The argument can be used for any religion you want, it doesn't attempt to solve which is correct. You can apply it to Christ if you want to take it to its extreme. Christianity in it's elitest sense anyway. Better safe than sorry you know? However I reiterate that this is not something one is to base there faith on as it is hollow and superficial. And try not to rely on 'the church' to guide your life, presuppositions, prejudices, whatever. Going to church doesn't make you any more of Christian than sitting in a garage will make you a car. God is so much more personal than that.

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Shep ]

[xino]

I agree with shep on most aspects......good read there

but as for PEOPLE not liking gays/lesbians?

hmmm..ok...you condemn faith and religion based ont eh actions of people supposedly acting on his/her behalf....

same way people say the crusades are evil...

just because someone says it was done in the name of god doesn't make it so...

if I go out and kill 47 people with a spork does that mean I did it for god just because that's what I said?...delusion is everywhere....


if you blame a religion based on any actions of a mortal person then you don't know enough about religion to make that judgement in the first place...

my religion lets you condemn the sin but love the person...I follow that truly....

just because I was a felon at one time in my life does that make it impossible for me to change?...does that mean we must hate indifferently?....religion is about second chances (at least in a small part)...why do you think so many condemned for life in prison find God?...even those who are only in prison for a short time can find God...it's up to each person to make their choice...

but condemning religion based on the actions of one person is stupid.

otherwise I would kill everyone I see because a certain race has wronged me 400 years ago or the English taxed our country unfairly or some woman broke my heart....although this may be an extreme example it is still the same example that some of you uphold....blaming a religion because of one person...

if that was true then all muslims in America would be dead.

next time you blame a religion perhaps you should at least know what you're blaming....go and read to see exactly what the bible (any version of it) teaches before you condemn so non-chalantly

P.S. No I'm not african-american.

[wayfinder]

shep, it still doesn't make much sense though only in an argument, cause it SOUNDS cool.