[Lukiaz]

Science & religeon.

Both look for the answers externally of oneself. Tis not the way.
One must look inwards...for all answers lie within.
(Yes grasshopper )

TO BE ENLIGHTENED IS TO BE INTIMATE WITH ALL THINGS

Namaste

[Poxin]

*claps for spooge* Very well said!

I'm gonna have some fun with words and go on an unorganized random for a moment.

I believe that "god" (whatever that may be) is not seperate from us. The idea that we are seperate from anyone or anything is simply an illusion. Everything is attached together. In my opinion we are infact all one being and that everything combined together as it is, is god. We are god, we created our selves. We put our selves here so theres nothing to worry about, just enjoy the ride =D

My conclusion: You, me, everything, are but smaller pieces of a larger whole all subjectivly experiancing it's self. Why? because it can.

So far that sounds like the best explination to me.

[manta2saint]

After observing so many discussions and life experiences, I have come to the conclusion that:

It is scientists against believers.
Not Science against God.

Also, I have come to the understanding that all things have existed for the same reason, love. Love is the root of all life and reason. Think for a moment of what actually makes life matter. Does not all things actually lead to Love itself? Think of what your life would be like without love. Would it then even matter?

So, it is not a question of if creationism or the big-bang or evolution or whatnot get along; it is a question of what is Truth. Truth comes from Love, for truth is the realization of the meaning, the actual existance, and if existance is basicly nothing without Love, then Love is the truth and the meaning for all things. Without it, there would be no beginning or end; yet, Love exists for all time before and after, neverending and neverbeginning. It is the principle of all things.

So, we ponder in vain over how we have come to be, since we are only thinking selfishly as if we are that truth and reason to look for. Things are then as they are so that everything before and after it can be as it is meant to be. In turn, Love is what made all things for the benefit of all things. What is power without the ability to share it? In that case, Love is the constant, the reason why all things are as they are.

I personally have come to the understanding that God is Love itself. Love is unexlainable and impossible to pinpoint, and yet, you know it exists. Without it, you know there is no meaning or anything at all. In conclusion, God made all things so that all things could come to try to understand and enjoy Him, His Love. He is what holds us together and what makes us exist. Humans can describe God as they can describe Love, with awe and realization.

As you can see, I am a "religious" person, but you would be wrong. Religion is just a term put on scientific theories that relate to uncertain parts of human existance. Every religion exists as part of God's ultimate plan for us to see Him as He is. Our losses and sin are only part of the ability He has given for us to understand Him and all that He has created. God never said for all that He created to stop growing, but He set humans as a "control" for the variable existance of all else.

Things are as they are for a reason. For without having our dogs die when they are 4 or us loosing loved ones, how could we ever truly accept something perfect without wanting to try something unperfect. Love made us sinful so that we could turn against the lies that plague us and forever accept the truth in it. So, all of life is to our advantage, and if we accept Love and the truth of God, of course we will know that life that He has in mind for us before we were born, after we die, and right now.

I hope that you can understand, for I know you can. Just think of your families and of what matters, and in every person's life, you will see the most solid truth of all.

-Michael

[Ben Barker]

Humans have evolved technology far faster than we've evolved the wisdom and understanding to use it properly. We spend so much energy devoting ourselves to individual "religions", and thinking that ours is right and everyone else is wrong, we've lost the art of introspection. There's a huge picture we're missing here. We will destroy ourselves before we find it.

Spooge's opinion that we have no permanance is one that I waffle back and forth on. On one hand, he is right. The universe will go on, no matter what we do. On the other hand, there must be a purpose for life. It would be so much simpler, and require far less energy, for life not to exist. Even the smallest, single celled organisms strive to stay alive at all costs when it would be so much easier to die. It's almost as if life desires to exist, that it will fill any suitable container for as long as possible.

I don't believe in God. But I believe there is a reason life exists. Not necessarily a spiritual reason. I think ultimately our understanding will grow to encompass what we consider today to be spiritual. Our understanding of the universe now is so minimal, how can we even being to grasp what is obviously part of the universe's fundamental structure? If there is, somewhere, and elder being who we could consider God, I doubt it knows all of the answers either.

[travis travis]

How does mutation work?

That's all I want to know. I don't buy that one creature can be born with a whole new mutant appendage that's FULLY FUNCTIONAL and serves a purpose PLUS be able to pass a mutation down to children? Show me some real world examples, I'd really like to see how that works.

I'm not christian or religious (and shame on your one-dimensionality if you thought I was) but this is a very big quibble I have with evolution theory, in that just cause yes we can all agree biology builds biology, that we're willing to ignore that it makes no fucking sense that we can randomly become perfectly functional for our environment. In my opinion: Evolution, yes. Mutation, no way. Which means it still has to be explained but you are all just sitting on your asses happy just to acknowledge the bare minimum recognition of a scientific basis. Whoopee damn doo. Unfortunately for me, I don't buy sentiments (we're god's children! we're biological organisms!) I buy sense. The actual answers stare us in the face and asked to be examined but people instead fill themselves with opinion and whatever couple of words mantra they feel like that they can turn to to feel secure. Whether you pursue your own spirituality or your own biological roots, the important thing is that you actually pursue and examine the reality of these things and not just base your life on the occasional newsweek article or the good book.

[Steven Stahlberg]

travis travis, yes, evolution doesn't work through mutation - relatively rare damages to the DNA, hardly ever beneficial - but there's no big mystery as to why things evolve. Evolution works through the small but constant variations produced by normal mixing of genes.

In any given population, there's bound to be variations among the individuals.
Some of those variations will enable some of the individuals to have more offspring, either by living longer, or by being more fertile, or attracting a mate better, or whatever (and any combination of that).
Some of those variations will be passed on to the next generation, some will not. Those that do will most likely keep on being passed on, and also become more prevalent - the stronger genes gradually pushing out the weaker ones from the genepool. You see how this forms a very simple but effective positive feedback loop. Yes, it's dog slow, taking hundreds, maybe thousands of generations for even a minor change to proliferate through the population, but that's plenty fast enough to explain what we see today.

[travis travis]

that still doesn't make sense to me steven. specifically, where do new things come from in a species? they have to come from somewhere to begin with or have some faculty that creates them. I don't see what we have identified yet that explains how a creature can... well, become another creature. how does a single-celled organism grow into a complex animal? if it happens that some variant gene makes a creature better thrive in it's environment and thusly that variant becomes a main part of all of those creatures... where do variant genes come from? what I'm saying is that natural selection seems more like an effect to me then an understanding of evolution.

[Steven Stahlberg]

I'm no expert so correct me if I'm wrong.
Also correct me if I'm covering ground you already know, in that case sorry.

My understanding is that evolution works a bit like a brute-force decrypting algorithm; through billions and billions of random variations most if not all possible avenues get explored; if one of these yields any positive feedback it automatically gets explored further.

What looks like big changes to us are in fact comprised of many minute steps, taken one after the other during millions of years.

Where do variant genes come from? From Sex (tm), the best thing to ever happen to evolution. There's a big re-shuffling when 2 individuals mix their genes. Siblings are very rarely the same, right?

[manta2saint]

Technically, both of you are correct. The creation of a higher creature comes from a very random and slow process, while slight variation is the key to a better chance of servival of the species.

Mutation is the result of genetic changes caused by damaged cells during the meiosis of sex cells. Normally, "mutation" is used to term a change by damaged cells in a negative way that overall hurts the new creature. As to when and how it occurs, there are many ways. Such ways could include the rare event when a sex cell it duplicating during meiosis in cell division and some bacteria or virus or contaminated particle attacks or enters the cell, damaging the genetic makeup of the new haploid cells. These genetic mistakes all have to do with what type of damage was done to the deoxyribonucleic-acids(DNA) making up the chromosomes of the cell. These mistakes could change around or cause holes in the double helix's seperate nitrogen bases, resulting in their codon combinations to assemble incorrect or no appropriate amino acids that make up the proper proteins used in all the cell's activities. The change in proteins or rearranging of the compounds of the DNA could result in possible duplications of the command to create cells used for the formation of an arm, resulting in a possible longer or extra arm on the creature. The same can relate to any other needed cell process of the animal, causing unlikely abnormalities.

Unlike a mutation, the formation of more "variation" is an essential part of the existance of a species. The variation in different traits can occur in relation to changes according to new chemicals from a shifting environment. The slight variation of genes through many generations of shifting DNA from parents to offspring can prevent some creatures from being killed off. That variation might help a species of mice live while all other mice of the species die of some disease. The most minute changes from ever-changing cells from the combining process of cell division can lead to so much change over a long period of time, and with nearly ever creature(even uni-cellular creatures) having a slightly unique genetic code than every other one, there is almost a limitless chance for mass variation and change within a species.

-Michael

[roundeye]

but a billion (or whatever number you choose) years of a species having a partially formed eye or wing or leg or a feather or a nose or finger etc.. would not be beneficial, not that it could be explained why it would occur anyhow. is that a 'variation'? a partially formed limb that serves no purpose, but is infact a hinderance? variation within a species is within the realm of believabity, but thats it. the rest seems like pure desperate reaching.

[manta2saint]

Roundeye, you are absolutely correct. Otherthan in the case of human beings, a lack of variation or the addition of faulty genes in a species can easily lead to the death of them all. Such an occurance is extinction of the species.

Still, human beings are one of the strangest creatures on earth; no, they -are- the strangest and most unique on earth. Unlike most organisms, we do not cooperate with natural processes. Essentially, we have an obsession with controlling whatever we can so that we can gain a sense of pride. Pride is also the reason that we are the most repulsive organism. Yet, our ability to care and know Love makes us the most desired and magnificent organism. Unlike other organisms, our genetic changes do not affect us as much in the range of variation. Sometimes disease only kills some people and not others, but normally we find a way to get around our genetic supremacy and weakness. Our personalities and who we are is what gives us mass variation, a variation beyond genetics.

So, when we have a lack of variation genetically, we always have personal variation that can change what occurs to us. Other organisms react only to natural actions or things, and yet, humans react by both genetic and personal means. So, having a lack of genetic variation has never been our major problem. Also, in concerns to faulty genes and mutations, we have always been able to at least try get around them; we attempt to defy what happens to us. It is in our "nature" to be rebellious, nomatter if it is a parent or even the laws of nature. Humans are all about defying, but in the end, we see that defying everything only ends up hurting us and others. In the end, it is the most basic principles and bonds that we turn to. So, in a way, we only truly understand who we are when we look back at what makes us or anything else matter. Black or white or brown or red, we all have roots in our personal bonds with eachother. That is what truly sets us apart from other animals, our ability to recognize the love for one another and the true reason that we are together.

So, variation in organisms can lead to mutations that have negative affects on the whole of the species. It can be surprising to many how such little errors can create such massive problems in the creature. Such mutations in nature are rare, but with the continued effort of humans who wish to change what exists for their gain, the fact of small genetic mistakes can easily bring either the rise or fall of a species. Still, humans continue to defy the reality of the important part they hold in molding this world of land and organisms.

-Michael

[roundeye]

are you high?

[manta2saint]

hm? Are you referring to my opinions being so different from your own? Or do you just not understand part of the evident changing of life on earth according to the terms of biological science? If in any way I have made a mistake or confused you, don't mind asking, but it is an insult to me for you to even consider that I was "high." So, if you don't agree, then explain your own theories and observations. All that I have said is based upon my study of biology and the human mind, but again, if you would like to add more knowledge to me, I would be more than happy to understand your viewpoints.

-Michael

[roundeye]

no, its cuz you ramble on and on about bullshit. its almost like you have no control over your typing finger.

ive been there, haha

[Steven Stahlberg]

Roundeye, to anwer your question, about partially formed limbs that serve no purpose - I don't think it works that way. Every step of the way to the 'final' limb we see now (which isn't really 'final' since it's still evolving), was useful to the organism, otherwise it would not have become a recurring feature in the gene pool. (Limbs that are regressing are a different story.)
Exactly how all these steps worked can sometimes be a mystery, since all we have usually is fossils, if that much. The key is to think in REALLY small steps, remembering that each step was useful.

In the case of an eye for instance, we could speculate that a few cells randomly spread through a multicellular organism were photo-sensitive - a fairly common feature in nature.
If it gives any kind of advantage to be photosensitive, more is always better, so the sensitive cells become more sensitive, more numerous, clumping together in patterns useful for perception, sending more sophisticated chemical messages to the organism. But now the sensitive patch is getting too sensitive. Some of the organisms are perhaps born with a protective layer. This develops into a pocket, a cavity, for even better protection. For a long long while there I think all the most advanced living things (the trilobytes) had very primitive multipartite eyes, perhaps these were gradually consolidated into a single cavity? I don't know, again I'm no expert...
Then one of the protective layers develops into a lens... And so it goes. Well that's the basic idea anyway.

[roundeye]

but steven, thats purely speculative. prove it somewhat or ill segue into hollow earth theories.

the fact of the matter is that there are NO intermediate evolutionary steps for vertebrates found in the fossil record.

[roundeye]

and what now are we in the mid stage of developing? how are we evolving now? i find it odd that no species on earth is in any stage of evolution.

or are they. how?

[burn0ut]

kids will now be born with 7 fingers on each hand to keep up with computers dumdumdummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[wayfinder]

roundeye, hit and run tactics, bad taste but they sometimes work.

[burn0ut]

[Gimbal8]

It is reassuring to read posts from people like Steven, manta2saint and Spooge because you can tell they took the time to learn things and judge them with the kind of sharp reasoning required to determine fact from fiction and have the ability to build upon their understanding in a logical fashion.

People like that kick ass.

[SplitSoul]

All you need:
http://mcb.harvard.edu/BioLinks/Evolution.html

[travis travis]

"are you high?"

why, does he seem to be paranoid and spacially disorientated? drugs don't bring coherent thoughts, they bring the feeling of coherent thoughts. if you'd like me to qoute you some passages from an ex-friend's/current junkie's notebook I have lying around, I think you'll find a vast difference between things a conscious human being can realize compared to pipe dreams.

but anyway, thanks for trying to fill me in steven and michael. helps it make a little more sense, though my mind still finds the comprehension of the issue perhaps just too vast for it's comprehension... it seeks a gestalt or force even... something that makes sense to me as a human as to how an organism knows what's good for itself other then randomness.

[manta2saint]

I agree with your questioning, Travis; it is hard to understand how creatures(especially humans) can tell what is "better" since some might come to wonder why they would even have the sense to care for living anyway. That is another "unexplainable" scientific understand, the ability to have instinct. Many times, the organism acts irrationally to genetic possibilities and just ends up doing what aids other organisms or themselves. "Instinct" is like the ability to think; there is no genetic programming for it.

That is why I believe in "Intricate Design", or the idea that all things were made and exist for exact reasons and run according to the complex mind of a higher being. Still, I also accept the creator's simplicity and personal nature. I consider this true; since unlike most religions try to make God endlessly far away and unrelated, I know Him personally. Sound at all strange? Well, it is only the truth, and in this earth and space around us, He only helps us understand His glory and keep us in awe of His desire to be close to us in the expanse of so much. A speck of sand personally being important and cared for by the builder of the whole, magnificent sand castle.

Thank you Gimbal8 for the complement. It was my joy to add some bit of my words to the discussion.

-Michael