[0100467]

Hi,
I am already on a computer arts degree, but I have decided that I need to totally revamp my approach and technique to drawing - in other words, have a proper method. I want to be a concept artist. I probably should have gone to art college, but thats too late now. My only option is to teach myself to draw. However, all the best books (Loomis, Bridgeman, Nicolaides...) require you to have a paid nude model, which I don't have. I only get one life drawing module per year (12 lessons). I can't change my course AGAIN (I did that last year), so I was wondering if there is any self-taught artists among you that has made a job/repectable living out of your artwork, without having gone to art school. Is it possible to reach one's potential from studying books and practicing on your own, or is art college the more realistic option? If there are any of you that have taken the self-taught route, how did you learn/practice when you had no model to work from?

I welcome all input on this matter.
Thanks for listening,
Simon (Artist in Need!).

[Jelo]

Well I'm self taugth and I'm doing just fine. I've been drawing since childhood though and started off early painting digitaly on my Amiga and then later 3d during my senior collage (actyally "gymnasium" in sweden where I live). All I can say is that going to art shool is a good thing but you can always aquire the knowlede by your self. It's may take longer though.
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Portfolio:www.joelart.com E-mail: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>

[tommyboy73]

Here's a few ways to get a model for free. Try a nude beach if you have one in your area. if you ask nicely most folks will let you draw them nude as long as you don't gawk. Of course don't annoy them by asking them to strike cheescake poses. Another option if your brave is to take a sketchbook into a strip club and while your enjoying a drink quickly do some gesture drawings. If your lucky a girl may ask to look at what your doing, in which case you can ask her if she'd like to pose for you really quick, or if she'd be interested in posing after her shift at a place of her choosing. Believe it or not some girls are just flattered you picked them to draw so she may do more posing for you. Offer some money if you can. A wife or girlfriend also make a good model, however the prospect of actually finishing the drawing are slim (you know what I mean)!! If you have access to it you can get Poser 4 or 5. While not a "live" model, it does provide a fast, solution that is fairly accurate. You can pose and light the model anyway you choose, and if you get Daz 3D's michael and Victoria models the body morphs are endless. The program costs about $200 so if you have a friend willing to give you a copy that's a bonus. My favorite is the strip club method (obviously). I actually met an artist who worked on Vampirella for quite some time at a strip club doing the exact same thing I mentioned.

[tommyboy73]

Also I might add, that while art school is a valuable source of info it is not necessary to make a living doing artwork. There are plenty of self taught artist that are doing well. You can get books, join and participate in art forums (operative word being "participate"), there are online tutorials, drawing contests and videos to be found. There are also art instruction DVD's and tapes you can get. A pretty cool video on illustration I picked up was Junad Khan's "Art of the Makina". The background music was annoying as hell, but you basically watch this guy do a beautiful illustration from scratch. Lots to absord from such an experience. Ultimately the amount of work you put into your art will equal the reward you get out of it.

[cheney]

Better talent comes from those who are self-taught. Better jobs go to those who are educated. Draw your own conclusions.
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http://prettydiff.com/

[B0b]

i'm self taught and believe that education can help u improve ur skills (just don't let any1 tell u how to draw, only how to improve what u all ready have)

[ceenda]

[tommyboy73]

When it comes to being artistic you either have it or you don't. There's always that inner ability that comes through. School will help refine that ability, but so will practicing on your own and using any available learning tools. School, or more specifically a degree helps when you go for a job and the decision is between you and an equally talented artist. 9 out of 10 times the decision maker will pick the person with a degree over the one who doesn't have one. Sad fact. After all, in the art field all a degree says is that you were good enough to get a grade of C or better in your chosen field of study. Big deal!!! What was said about not being impressed by the work of art school students does hold some truth. I had an employee working under me who graduated from the School of Visual arts in NYC. She was able to do the work I asked of her, but couldn't draw to save her life. My 6 yeear old niece could do better!! It seems the computer is so saturated into the curriculum these days that they let students graduate that cannot draw or paint. This I think leads to creative apathy to some degree. Very sad!!

[tommyboy73]

Sorry folks, I didn't notice you were from Scotland. I should of looked under your name at the left before I posted. My bad!! Yeah, I guess nude beaches are pretty non existent Scotland. Try the stip club thing then. I'm sure Scotland has at least one strip club?? Maybe not? I'm use to being in the US so we have all of these places to go. Sometimes I forget that other countries may not.

[spline]

Well many art schools today are more into thinking that you should make "art" not draw realistic. But a good art school and teachers can help alot. I sometimes se selftought people who are kind of skilled, but they often make some misstakes, that they dont see or know about. Which makes the painting not as good as it could have been. Why because they have never studied at artschool.

But when it comes down to it if you are very motivated and work hard you can become whatever you like.

In sweden we have some places that arrenge so called "open kroki" this is a place that offer modeldrawing that is open for everyone. It usually costs around 5-8$ per time. If you call some art colleges they will probably know where you can go. Also in art supply shops there is often adverts for these, or you can ask.

Maybe you can also get help from these guys

http://www.modelreg.com/

[Anthony]

I'm a graduate of the Sijun School of Digital Art. My favorite profs include Professors Spooge, Fred, and Jason Manley.
_________________
-Anthony
Carpe Carpem
http://www.anthonyfransella.com

[spooge demon]

There is 500 years of accumulated knowledge about art that you would be hard pressed to recreate on your own. So education is good, but most of the schools I know of are... not very good.

But even if you are taught academic skills well, that can interfere with creativity. You have to to express your creativity but not so tied up in fancy skills that your work looks like an Andrew Loomis book.

Most people do not have jobs through want of drawing skills. You are generally hired to illustrate another's idea, and that takes flexible skill. I think schooling is much better for this.

But you know that some seeds are planted with the right soil with plenty of water and the right temperature and right PH etc. and just die. Others push through 8 inches of pavement.

So my advice would be to go to school, but be aware that your you may be sacrificing your individuality to get skills that will help you get hired. Maybe make a careful delineation between your public and private work, but be aware that this is hard to do and one will "infect" the other. A careful balance is really important.

I am only talking about illustration. If you want to be a fine artist in the modern western tradition, DON'T go to a school. Originality of concept is valued beyond all else in that field. Just do what you do and go to alot of parties and make a lot of important friends and cultivate yourself as "serious"

[Arc][Pello]

yeah im self-taught also but have been drawing since i can remember...however within the last year when i started digital art ive learned more than i have my entire life about drawing...its been a rush to the head

another benefit of teaching yourself is that you begin to develop your own style which can set you apart from other artists:)
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www.ARCIPELLO.com

[Drew]

I'm in school right now, so my opinion may be skewed. I think much of what I'm learning is worthless. I think some of my teachers suck. I know that a degree doesn't automagically give me a steady or high paying job. I'm spending a fuckload of cash. But there's no way I'm leaving.

For all it's bad points, school has many good ones. It's a great place to make contacts. It's interesting to watch others progress, and helps you realize that every really good artists used to suck (even Spooge!). It helps me to stay on track and learn the things that I need to know.

I always look at my teachers artwork to get an idea of where they're coming from. I don't take what they say as Truth, I just take it as the way they view things. For example, Spooge is an excellent artist, but the way he works isn't for me, at least not right now. I need to concentrate on line work because I'm working in animation. (Sorry to keep using you as an example...).

Worrying about not developing your own style is kind of pointless. Not matter what you do, you will be influenced by what's around you. Your level of originality is determined by how well you hide your sources. Just be aware of the stylistic choices that you are making.

[Quezzie]

Why such a strong distinction between being self-taught and going to art school? As far as just plain art skill goes, it seems you can pick up skills anywhere...practicing on your own, learning from other artists, taking classes, reading books, surfing forums...going to an art school isn't mutually exclusive of teaching yourself.

Career-wise...
This is my opinion (take with much salt, as I am a student at an art school), but it seems to me the more noticeable benefits of art school are that it gives you time and resources. A full time art student studying in a school spends (theoretically) all their time practicing their art, with few distractions. They can pick up skills from the professors and peers (they're pooled in that one place), and then there's the degree at the end. The contacts might be a foot in the door for jobs. There are classes in art schools aimed specifically to help you survive in the field of, say, freelance illustration...and I get the feeling that's the edge art schools give you.

Eack, this is sounding horribly biased. I'm not saying self-taught artists will always be at a disadvantage...in my experience, it's just more difficult to align things your way (the difference between going to strip clubs and having models hired to come in weekly...you've got to spend energy getting there AND THEN drawing, while going to an art school the first part is already done), but it's definatly do-able. It might be that much more meaningful to have done everything yourself.

Sometimes, art school seems like the expensive formal version. It's not always a ticket to success, but it's another tool. That, and some schools are better than others. :/ Maybe with talent and the right contacts, a career in art can totally be realized.

Open to other views on this matter...it's late and I'm slightly out-of-it as I type.

[Radiance]

hi 0100467 (original poster),
it is very possible to be a self taught artist with just books or other graphic material (e.g. photos). i'v never drawn with live models, i draw my people analytically (with anatomy in mind) which helps alot.

hope this helps!

[Citizen Cow]

Im self taught and Im horrid. All I CAN offer though is that most colleges or "arty" communities have Nude Drawing sessions that charge about 5 bucks at the door wether you go to that college or are a member of he club/class or not. Its all the circles you are in or put yourself in.
If you werent in Scotland you coudl draw me nude.... CHEAP!
Having a nude person in front of you to draw though I dont think is the "missing link".
Congratulations on knowing what you want to do though! thats great!

[Drunken Monkey]

[IDMAN]

Coming from a industrial design school background, learning traditional drawing skills, (there were no computers when I graduated in 1987), and self taught, in Photoshop and 3D, I would highly recommend art school. It was more affordable when I attended so I can sympathize with anyone trying to get an art education.

I recall how the students who started out good in their first term, were still good when they graduated.

The students who started out slow had a marked improvement, and by graduation were as good or better than the other students.

There is a lot to say for learning from other students as well as your instuctors. Nothing beats being able to turn to someone for instant feedback.

Art school is also the most fun and hard work you'll ever do. It's a great experience that you won't forget.

[qbranch001]

Well, I can see I have brought up a strong discussion point in my original post, there has been so many varied and quite passionate replies. Thanks for al your comments, and feel free to keep posting opinions/experiences if you'd like to. I'm always open-minded about people's views. I agreed with several of the posts where they said many art schools push for untraditional methods such as abstract painting, and that's why I was reluctant to enroll. I just want the traditional skills of drawing and painting - no soapbox. However, I do agree with the college students in that it does help to have a degree when applying for jobs. That's why I'm doing my CA degree, because it gets me used to working to deadlines and my University has good industry contacts in the entertainment business. But, I am determined not to let digital technology interfere with my drawing skills and will continue my epic learning quest using the army of instructional books I have collected. Thanks again,

0100467
(Artist in less need than before, but still needy).

[Lunatique]

I don't see why the distinction between the 2 either, as Quezzie expressed. Things are not what they used to be before the internet.

There are plenty of very well written art instruction books/internet forums/art-related websites out there, and collectively, they provide excellent learning/networking for anyone who's serious about a career in art.

I've seen plenty of art school graduates that...well, to put it bluntly, suck. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of self-taught artists that can draw/paint circles around these art school graduates. I really believe it's up to the individual.

However, having formal figure drawing classes, easy access to nude models, classmates for friendship/critique/competition, and immediate feedback from teachers can't be a bad thing. Just make the most of it if you're going to pay an arm and a leg for tuition.

[Drunken Monkey]

There is a huge difference between sitting at home with a loomis book to your side trying to draw it out than it is sitting in an atelier class with a live model and some really good teacher explaining it to you and drawing in your pad. Night and day difference. I wish i never listened to all this 'self taught' bullshit. Practice without guidance is a lot of unnecessary frustration.

You absolutely do need proper and individual feedback. Otherwise you will end up guessing for years... when it could have been months! Why reinvent the wheel?
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Uber Gnat]

I am in art school currently, and it does help, but if you practice it shouldn't make a difference in the long run. Also, I find looking a lot of art often stimulates and challenges me to create my own. Every museum visit can be a learning process (as can every trip to this forum). Fianlly, if you can't find any models, try porn, it's worked for me.

[-KD-]

Lo there I think I'm on the same course as you, possible in the same year...there are a few simons kicking about xD Infact I'm pretty sure you are the simon I know as you swapped courses. But anyway...

The amount of actual drawing tuition does indeed suck on this course we need way more life drawing time. The amount we get taught in other areas is also sadly lacking I feel...Not a great course all round so far but hopefully will pick up in second year...

[Alpha_Meta]

A couple of options for models:

http://www.fineart.sk/product/modelalisa.htm

http://www.fineart.sk/product/tight/Iisha.htm

I've been burned by a bad school before and I'll be self-teaching this time. Female models who refuse to take their clothes off? Computers that can't boot programs? Instructors that leave class and hide so they won't have to answer students questions? Granted, this school was for 3D animation but I bet a lot of your 2D schools are the same. Either get into a good, well recognized school or do it yourself.