[shawnhud]

I have been using Photoshop for 4+ years. For the first 3.5 of said years filters were all I used to create various designs for marketing purposes. For the past 6 months or so, I have found this forum, bought a Wacom and have been painting. The other night I was working on a piece where a "Daddy" duck is there with his "son" duck pointing up to a framed painting of the boys' "grandfather" duck on a wall as if telling his "son" duck what a great duck he was, yada yada yada. Confusing enough?
To make a long story short (too late), I put a canvas texture filter on the framed painting and saved. As soon as it fully saved, I felt an overwhelming sense that I had just cheated somehow, and still feel that way. I could have done it manually, albeit a pain in the ass, and I would have felt the satisfaction of having done it 1000% myself and maybe even learned something in the voyage.
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[Libby Rust]

...Filters aren't the problem here, guys

I mean, hell, look at some of the cool stuff you can do with them (example: http://www.handson.nu/ )

I mean, can you tell me this http://www.handson.nu/HTML/texwrap.shtml looks like "crap"? (the cross image)

That entire image was made with filters. True, it isn't 100% spiffalicious, but it's pretty darn cool for when it was made. Fact of the matter is, one can do some really cool stuff with filters. It is, as said, just another tool.

And while I agree that one needs to learn the proper skills to make a proper image, filters aren't the problem here, it's the people who tend to use them.

If you know what you're doing, filters can be an awesome asset, a great thing to add to your toolbox, and an all-around-time-saver for a lot of folks. While there are those who can do anything faster by drawing/painting than they can by using filters, you know what? Good for them. That's how they work, others may work differently. I say use what you like/have to make what you want. Just know how to use them

And for that matter, who's to really say what's right and what's wrong in art? Art is *the* most subjective thing on earth. When you start trying to put "rules" to it, the true meaning of art is lost.

The only thing I could say that has "rules" are certain styles that're already established, ie, various cartoon styles, neoclassical paintings, standard comic book art, etc. Then you'd just go by what normally works there, adhearing to what works for those particular styles. And if your art falls in between the cracks of several styles, just do what works best.

And for those who draw "outside the box", just do what you want to do, the way you want to do it, and all that jazz.

I actually agree with Blind Tree Frog in the aspect of it looking like there's a lot of Elitism going on here, but really, I think it's a combo of people getting tired of hearing how wonderful filters are when they just plain hate them, and cheney coming in and stepping on some toes.

I don't really see what the problem is with cheney's arguement, outside of getting a few facts wrong. I think there's a lot of touchy subjects at hand, and, unfortunately, he hit some tender spots with a lot of people. Those people, while I'm sure have had some crappy experiences with stubborn people (I know that another fellow in another thread was trying to "correct" Socar on the way she holds her tools, and I wouldn't blame her for blowing the guy's head off), but really guys...it's kinda silly

Maybe I just didn't read enough to see any snarkiness or anything, but eh, I'm a "n00b", what do I know?

Feel free to correct me if I missed something Cheney said though...could have been some snarkiness I missed.

I would just ignore somebody like that though, normally. Let them be their own little stubborn selves, because arguing with them sure isn't going to change anything, and all it does is cause you to blow a vein.

And, to lighten the mood a bit, I think I'm gonna pull this one out, because it's soooo true:



If that offends somebody, sorry, but...I just couldn't help it! It's becoming more and more true every day!
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"Do we call you Big Bird or Oscar the Grouch? How bout Boscar the Brouch? No, no, that's not right..."
-Natalie Pooka

[Socar MYLES]

I do hope you realize my remark about Rembrandt was meant only as light-hearted ribbing, certainly not as a slight against Cheney in ANY way.

All I've been saying in this thread, although Cheney himself seemed to take it on a bit of a tangent for a while, there, is that if you've found a method that works for you...use it. It's results that matter, not process. I haven't attacked anyone, or said a single word against filters.

The only thing I have said about Cheney himself is that he tends to come off as trying to get everyone else to work the way he does. This isn't the first time I have noticed this issue raised by him. And, sorry, but I think that's just as out there as if I were to start a thread saying that the only good tool in Photoshop is the Paintbrush, because it's the only one I like to use. Bullshit. I get my results my way. Cheney gets his results his way. Experimenting is good, learning is good, but hearing people constantly extol one method of working over another (whether it's painting or filtering) is tedious and annoying.

I remembered who the dude is that uses filters, also. He has a gallery on GFX Artist--I think it's kss.gfxartist.com. He has very good art now and improves his technique all the time.
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[Blind Tree Frog]

Ignoring the stick up my ass earlier......



I can't remember if anyone said something about this earlier, but filters do have the risk of making some effects too easy.... It's like with a lot of 3d stuff I see now. People throw a few filters on it and think it looks great and correct, but they don't know how to do it correctly and it looks wrong, but they don't realise it or know why (and hence, how to fix it). There is nothing wrong with using filters and they can add much to a picutre. But unless someone knows how it is supposed to look it just looks like a filter and not like it belongs there (Take len's flare for example... and anyone that believes that it is a completely unrealisitic effect should see things through my eyes for a while..... it's just used wrong too often)

[cheney]

In reflection I suppose it comes down to a simple concept. Photoshop is a toolbox, and the paintbrush or selection tool are its tool sets. A tool is a device simple unto its needs and limitations. An artist must use the tools oh the trade to create art. Art is an expression of the artist, and not an experssion of a tool limitation.

Feng Zhu is a concept sketch artist who seems to prefer sharp line limitation for sketch over the drama of wild brush strokes. As a result Feng would probably prefer to use the selection tool and shape tool to define his shading and object shapes rather than a freehand brush stroke.

Painting is a type art noted for its drama. In the realm of traditional arts I suppose I am more of a print artist rather than a painter. I prefer the concept of overlapping etched plates to create a sharper more defined art rather than the drama of painting. As a result I see fit to use tools outside the realm of painting. I am a strange person who prefers the printings of Albert Durr over the paintings.

Ultimately art is nothing more than trying get a job done. You have some tools. You put the tools in the box and go to work. The end result is a variation of stylization. You would not argue that using the paintbrush tool takes practice for an artist to use it with any sort of skill. I would not argue that filters are no less different.

But, to instantly assume that using a filter is crap is an assumption of great ignorance. To assume instant results throught the use of limited filter uses is crap, but no less than a poor lazy painting. To assume painting is the only form of art is also a step of ignorance that many traditional printers would just as quickly bark at. Practicing painting is a good thing, but learning to enhance and modify painting through the use of tools at hand is also a good thing. Would you ever give a painter a palatte knife then tell them to never use for its lack of painterly drama? If not then don't instantly assume my methods are unartistic.
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[Drew]

I really thought you had it until the end.