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Topic : ""Bad Art/Good Art" - Fred Ross: thoughts on modern" |
LoTekK
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 Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:10 am |
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Many veterans will likely have read this lecture already, but I myself only just today caught it on artrenewal.org. It's a speech that was given by Fred Ross at the MOMA in 2001, and while the views within may be seen by some as rather extreme, give it a chance anyways. It's a great, light read, and raises many valid issues.
Good Art/Bad Art - Fred Ross
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LoTekK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:25 am |
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| Oh, and as a counterpoint, I remember having a discussion with a classmate last semester about some of the stuff on sijun and on conceptart.org, notably spooge's work as well as Andrew Jones' self-portraits. This guy was the complete and utter counterpoint to the flock-of-sheep modernists. He was so dead set in his study of art history that to him, unless an artist's name was Michaelangelo, Raphael, etc, they were crap and weren't producing "art". This guy was following his own naked emperor. o_O |
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Aaron
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:14 pm |
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My response here made Craig Mullins cry. I said something about proponents of modern art being similar to nazis, or something like that. I had to erase it, I couldn't live with my words being online when they make Craig Mullins cry. Maybe this will ease the bitter memory of my message, it always makes me smile...
Last edited by Aaron on Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:03 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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spooge demon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:38 pm |
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LoTekK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:03 am |
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| spooge demon wrote: |
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what's the long face in reaction to?
btw, just to make it clear, i support neither view in its entirety... bits of this and bits of that... |
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AndyT
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zaar
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:22 am |
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| Hasn't this article been brought up for discussion here before? Didn't everyone agree on that artrenewal and the likes are uncool? And did no one learn anything from the "a comment on modern art" thread? (the one AndyT links to above) |
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Frog
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:10 am |
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This one's been discussed to death... 
Artrenewal.org is a great resource for old paintings but their views are clearly ultra-conservative and they have a very narrow appreciation of art. There's more to art than just technical excellence, and if you think that artists like Cezanne didn't have something to say that is as relevant to the world around us as the clinical perfection of the art promoted on that site then you too need to open your eyes a little.
It's much harder to find a new way of doing things than it is to just concentrate on technique. Technique will just make you a technician. If we all just kept the 19th century traditions going art would be boring as hell.
If modern art upsets you then don't look at it 
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haohmaru
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:03 am |
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| Aaron wrote: |
| That is f*cking fantastic! I gave up on the idea of art school after becoming so sick of the bullshit anti-skill propaganda. Its so relieving to see that there are still people out there that haven't been lobotomized by the modern art nazis. I actually started cheering out loud while reading. I'm going to print it out, frame it, and hang it from my rearview mirror! |
i am very sorry to hear that.
modern art nazis? might be the worst analogy i have ever heard.
i'm not trying to force any opinion on you, but please, really _please_ open your mind.
an open heart, an open mind, and open eyes. that's everything you need as an artist. skills? no.
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Aaron
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:36 am |
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Craig wrote
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I made Craig cry..... I take it back! I love modern art! It's A-W-S-O-M-E!
(I'm not against finding new forms of expression, and I don't think technical skills define an artist. But I do think you have to have some understanding of what you're interpreting. You ever see Picasso's early work? Very realistic, and technically very good. It was after he already understood the nature of how things look and really are that he began to interpret them. Then he could create his crazy images, of, for example, what he felt a person would look like in the fourth diminsion. What I'm frustrated with is that modern artists today skip the first step of learning, they start sodering trash cans to a bicycles, not because they are interpreteting something, but because they don't know any better. And this is encouraged. No one will tell them there is any difference. Where does it end? If I put a pickle in a jar of urine, just for the hell of it, and then call it art, does it then become worthy of being displayed in Chicago? Some five year old kid could start pounding random keys on a piano and call it music, but I'm not sure it would be. That doesn't mean you can't break rules and experiment. Debussy did, but after he understood music, and then it wasn't random light bulbs on painted shoe boxes.)
Last edited by Aaron on Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:17 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Aaron
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:06 pm |
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I'm never going to live that one down.... maybe that was a little harsh...
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| an open heart, an open mind, and open eyes. that's everything you need as an artist. skills? no. |
That sure sounds nice. My 3 year old niece makes great finger paintings, but I'm not sure they deserve a public exhibit. And what is the difference between my 3 year old niece (who has no skill but a very open heart), and a 35 year old man (with equal skill) making clay blobs? I should have been more clear, my problem isn't with new strange arts, its with giving virture to a lack of knowledge, and encouraging ignorance. It's with giving equal worth to the result of decades of work, and 5 minutes of screwing around. The problem isn't that modern art is simple, it's that many modern artists don't do it on purpose. Making crazy pieces, and calling nonsense art are not the same thing.
I think an open mind is wonderful up to a point. When you won't allow the thought that something might be wrong, then maybe your mind isn't really that open.
No supporters huh? Then I give up. I'm off to play that lonely piano theme from the Incredible Hulk.
EDIT - I would have saved myself a lot of trouble if only I'd searched on this topic before posting. I would have seen that Craig Mullins "sees red" and breaks things at the mention of the "fascist art renewal.org". Perhaps this is the wrong section of the forum for me. Things have already been discussed, and minds made up. I can only hope to hurt feelings. And that makes me sad. |
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haohmaru
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:21 pm |
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| Aaron wrote: |
That sure sounds nice. My 3 year old niece makes great finger paintings, but I'm not sure they deserve a public exhibit. And what is the difference between my 3 year old niece (who has no skill but a very open heart), and a 35 year old man (with equal skill) making clay blobs? I should have been more clear, my problem isn't with new strange arts, its with giving virture to a lack of knowledge, and encouraging ignorance. It's with giving equal worth to the result of decades of work, and 5 minutes of screwing around. Making crazy pieces, and calling nonsense art are not the same thing.
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just because you don't want to understand it doesn't make it nonsense art.
comparing it to the finger paintings of your niece is simply ignorant, sorry if i can't find any better words.
go and get yourself a book about art history. read it. especially anything newer than 18th century. then try to understand what lies behind concept art, or pop art, or whatever. try to understand why without dadaism there probably would've never been surrealism at all. try to understand why sigmar bolke(hope i didn't misspell, him) just painted one corner of a canvas in black and is considered the most important artist of today.
this does not happen without a reason. no serious artist chooses his technique random or just for fun. no one gets international reputation and will ever recieve high prices for his works without knowing what he does. believe me, being an artist is one of the most stressing jobs you could choose for yourself.
your opinion is not based on facts, it's based on missing knowledge :/
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LoTekK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:45 pm |
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| Frog wrote: |
This one's been discussed to death...
Artrenewal.org is a great resource for old paintings but their views are clearly ultra-conservative and they have a very narrow appreciation of art. There's more to art than just technical excellence, and if you think that artists like Cezanne didn't have something to say that is as relevant to the world around us as the clinical perfection of the art promoted on that site then you too need to open your eyes a little.
It's much harder to find a new way of doing things than it is to just concentrate on technique. Technique will just make you a technician. If we all just kept the 19th century traditions going art would be boring as hell.
If modern art upsets you then don't look at it |
My bad for bringing this up again.  I guess reading the lecture brought back the conversation with that classmate of mine who shared similar opinions, only on the opposite bank of the river. My post was not meant to support one view or the other, merely to serve as a reminder (unfortunately redundant) that neither side is "right". Neither the side that blasts classic art, nor the side that blasts modern art.
The last thing I want to do now is to bring up bad blood, so let's let this thread die peacefully.
ps. As the thread starter, is there any way for me to lock the thread? |
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Lunatique
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:03 pm |
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Artrenewal's anger comes from the days when painters with skill were ridiculed and ostracized(Godward commited suicide because of it, and Bouguereau was pushed into obscurity in art history books..etc), as modern art took over the art scene. They are also angry because the techniques of drawing and painting stopped being taught at art schools for decades as the direct result of modern art's supremacy in the art scene.
Things have changed now, but some people are still bitter and angry. I think they are entitled to their anger. What would this world be like if no one was allowed to feel like a victim?  |
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spooge demon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 4:01 am |
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Requiring an artist to "pay dues" and learn drawing is not always required. Academic skills are a tiny subset of the artistic universe. That is one of the questions that has been collectively asked by the 20th century "is craft relevant?" Some say yes, some no. I would say sometimes yes, but it is not required. Sometimes it is very limiting and I wish I could get it out of my own head!
I would expect the art renewal people to engage in the childish "they started it" routine. But, if they want to play, anyone with the lightest dusting of art history knows the Salon and the struggles and ostracism and cutting off body parts that went along with the artists who asked forbidden questions over a period of 60 years. Well, some of them were crazy to begin with, but that is beside the point.
Skill was not the problem, brain dead sentimental bourgeois pap was. Like the stuff I paint. Gives art a bad name, that is why they made up the term illustrator:0 Well that is not entirely accurate, but you know what I mean.
But there are plenty of charlatan modern artists who don't know anything except how to suffer terribly and drink latte in conspicuous places and look down their nose at all that is not hip and new. To hell with them as well. Maui is full of them. "I think I was 12 when I realized that I felt things on a much deeper level than everyone else..." |
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zaar
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:04 am |
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| Quote: |
| ...charlatan modern artists who don't know anything except how to suffer terribly and drink latte in conspicuous places... |
lol, spooge. That is so spot on! I've seen so many art students who are more interested in the suffering as an artist than doing actual art. Luckily I'm not one of them, even tough sometimes my craving for a well-made real latte (not in paper cups! and not one of those sugary syrup lattes) is bigger than my lust to draw.
One part of this discussion that I find interesting is that people tend to talk past each other. Not realising that modern art is many different things. And that to some people modern art means "art that is made now" (the name for that is "contemporary art"). Others think of modern art as modernism and the similar/surrounding movements during the 20:th century. And then there are those who think modern art means "no talent hacks splattering shit on walls"
btw, spooge: I 've seen you talk about wanting to "untrain yourself" many times. Why? Do you feel restricted by your training and want to explore what you would have created if you had no training? |
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Aaron
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 7:58 am |
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| just because you don't want to understand it doesn't make it nonsense art. comparing it to the finger paintings of your niece is simply ignorant, sorry if i can't find any better words. go and get yourself a book about art history. read it. especially anything newer than 18th century. then try to understand what lies behind concept art, or pop art, or whatever. your opinion is not based on facts, it's based on missing knowledge :/ |
Have you been to art school lately? My opinion comes from watching and talking with other students. Asking "why did you do that" usually gets "It just comes to me", or a sad/solemn glare. And from other classes it was obvious that many (if not most) of these artists have no knowledge at all of color, shape, proportions etc and I know, I know, it isn't nesessary that you master these before creating art. But shouldn't you know something about what you are interpreting? For many, the only "skill" they possessed was depression. If depressed hands with no skill makes great art, how is that different from my nieces unskilled happy hands? Does she have to start cutting her fingers off first? Now some paintings are odd for a reason, but when someone that knows nothing about art tells me they made a flower screwed up on purpose, I am suspisious. My frustration was that the instructors didn't know the difference, or didn't care. It was too frustrating for me to be part of.
From Craig's response, it seems that he dislkes the same group I am talking about. And I think most people do. The problem here is that I labeled all modern artists together, and that was wrong.
Alright, now I'm done |
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gArGOyLe^
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:20 pm |
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Relevant or not.. I'm going to shove my 2 cents in here.
I recently started real art classes and i'm starting from the very basics. I find that I know things (thanks to these forums and all the books i've bought) that other people don't.. but I don't advertise it and I graciously try to pick up everything I can. There is a lady in my art class (she seems to be in her mid 40s) and she is known as "the artist".
Last week my teacher asked "the artist" to tell the class what a color wheel is and what it can be used for.. and she was blank. No answer.. till she said.. "well it had the names of the colors".
Now I just can't help but feel cheated that she's supposed to be "the artist" because she makes squigglies on sheets of paper.. yet she doesn't know what a color wheel is.
Art can be anything... sure... but theres no substitute for hard work... The only thing that bothers me.. is that some people get appreciated by thousands yet the art itself is nothing but squigglies.. I think I may be jealous or something. Inside I do believe that art can be anything.. sometimes theee most simple art... with saay .. 3 lines can inspire and amaze me... the emptiness of it can fill me up.. yet sometimes I have these feelings of bleah.. I don't know... maybe I just contradict my self..
*walks off*
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Drew
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:33 am |
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| I hate "What is Art" type discussions. Art is what you think it is. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Nothing else matters unless you're collecting art to make money on it. Enjoy what you enjoy, ignore the rest. |
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gArGOyLe^
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:53 am |
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| Drew wrote: |
| I hate "What is Art" type discussions. Art is what you think it is. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Nothing else matters unless you're collecting art to make money on it. Enjoy what you enjoy, ignore the rest. |
So is all art equal? Thats like saying that 2 people.. a guy who believes that leprechauns created the world and another guy who believes in quantum physics and big bang theory are both right because well .. "thats what they believe in"...
Shouldn't there be a criteria on which there can be some discussion about art? If everyone arbitrarily says that "bleah.. I made this squiggly in 5 seconds with my eyes closed.. and its every bit as great as Spooges 10 hour painting.. because its mine.." ... thats where I don't feel comfortable..
Yet the fact remains that art is art.. Thats what makes art so free and with out boundaries.. I totally agree... but I'm sure theres some factor that differentiates the squiggly from say.. Sparths work.. or spooges work..
Yet almost all the criteria I can think of are not measurable.. Is it the amount of devotion one puts in the work? Well thats can't be calculated.. boohoo.. |
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haohmaru
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:38 pm |
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| Aaron wrote: |
| Asking "why did you do that" usually gets "It just comes to me", or a sad/solemn glare. And from other classes it was obvious that many (if not most) of these artists have no knowledge at all of color, shape, proportions etc and I know, I know, it isn't nesessary that you master these before creating art. But shouldn't you know something about what you are interpreting? |
i guess i got you wrong in the first place.
that group you describe doesn't have anything to do with art at all. if you can't describe your works and state exactly why you did something, its definately not art. and it is necessary to have basic knowledge of shapes/proportions/colors. not knowing these will even prevent you from creating art. how could you ever choose the proper color, if you didn't know what meaning it will add to your picture?
artists _do_ know that, no matter what kind of art they're producing. modern artist know that as well. you can be sure that you will never ever reach international popularity and achieve high prices for your artworks if you don't know what you're doing.
express your feelings? gah. everyone does that. this is not art. try to become popular with that. i promise you won't be able to.
so fuck those oh so depressed and oh so reflecting and deep feeling and whatever kids. they might make nice pictures, depressive pictures, gripping pictures, senseless pictures, but they offer nothing to the public, or at least to the history of art, which makes them irrelevant as artists.
that almost every good artist ever living on this planet suffered from major depression is another thing though...
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Aaron
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:40 pm |
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I think the discussion we are having now isn't so much "what can art be" as "who is an artist". Is a boxcar hobo an artist if he throws a brick through a car windshield and enough black leotard clothed critics gather around and say "Oo wee wee, it tis magnificant!" Does an artist have to know what he is doing? Can he be called a master if his works aren't intentional? If he's only laying down random lines, but the viewer sees a beautiful message of societies over dependance on technology, who really created the art?
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| Art is what you think it is. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
But then what is our role as an artist? If my art only exists once another has assigned its meaning, I don't think I really made it. What would it matter what my intentions were? What I struggled through, and what dreams and inspirations really went into it?
An artist is a creator worlds, where people can see his dreams and feel love and kinship with him because they too have similar passions, frustrations, and desires. The artist makes that place where people can meet and feel together across space and time. If it's all created by the viewer then the artist is unnessessary.
Last edited by Aaron on Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:24 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Aaron
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:28 pm |
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haohmaru, I'm glad we understand each other
It's unfortunate that my experience with modern art had to be with the "charlatans", and that they had to sour it for me. It is also sad the strong influence they now have in schools, the very place where students should learn the difference. |
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