[XandGash]

[rant]It's all religion's fault. All of them. Think of how many wars have been started because of religious believs. Religion is now slowing the progress of science, which could someday end world hunger. Without wars, there wouldn't be the genetic response of survival that leads to a baby boom, which would lower the population. If there was enough food and enough fewer people, meaning enough places to live, there would be no need for money. You may be thinking "What about resources, energy and materials?". Answer: Science. I've got a couple of plans for energy producing machines that would someday revolutionize the world, but can't work on them because I need money to survive and to make prototypes. My old scence teacher said that since springs wear out it wasn't technically perpetual motion, but it does't need to be, just more efficient than what we have now. And my idea about reaching the speed of light using a rubberball....GENIUS! If only people would listen, I could save the world, then with my third invention I could turn myself into an omnipotent being and rule it! BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!![/rant]

[greenmode]

nice talk everyone...

my parents were just watching dateline on NBC and there was these people(probably muslims) that were talking about what happened on sep. 11. one of the men said something about 400 jewish that worked in the WTC were coincidently absent on sep 11.

is this true? i just heard of it and found it interesting. basically, what they were saying was that this might not have been the works of the extrimist muslims. another one said that we should think about for whose advantage this will be(or something like that). but i wonder how that can be, since we already know who the terrorists are.. :/

[Darklighter]

do you? where's the evidence?

[Steven Stahlberg]

Basically these video tapes that Osama & friends keep making, where they praise the courage of whoever did it, and say "much more is to come..."

Oh no wait, the CIA are making those videos right?

[Poxin]

Steven of course there is more to come. Osama's just stateing the obviouse. You think you can just start a war on all terrorism and not expect more conflict? The harder we try to rid the world of terrorism the more terrorists we will create.

Fire makes fire. War is not the cure for war. The solution is right in front of us all. You just don't wanna see it. Or have been told not to believe it.

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Poxin ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

Poxin, I'm not sure you understood my post - it was meant as a reply to
Darklighter's question "Where's the evidence?"

quote:

---

The solution is right in front of us all. You just don't wanna
see
it. Or have been told not to believe it.

---

You know, this sounds almost like something a religious fanatic might
say.

Just because I have an opinion different from yours doesn't make me a
blind
fucking moron, or a zombie on a leash.

[roundeye]

check your rumors here greenmode. the jews were not allerted ahead of time. http://www.snopes2.com/

[Ragnarok]

Poxin, think about a serial killer for a moment. Many of them had traumatic chilhoods, they suffered dramatic experiences and that somehow leaded them to do what they did. But we judge them and jail them (in some of the US you kill them). Ok, everybody seems to accept this: he did it and he must pay for it, he's guilty.

The terrorist have made something very similar. Sure, there were causes for that action, but we must punish the action so people don't think they can do it and nobody's going to react.

Maybe I'm going to far with this. If so tell me your ideas about a better way of answering to what they did. The US don't say they won't do anything to solve the background situation that may have caused this, but they must react to the terrorism.

[Steven Stahlberg]

"Americans must understand that they will not have a moments peace..."

Poxin: Osama and his associates would have taken an entirely different tone in these videos and interviews if they were innocent. The only reason they're not coming right out and claming official responsibility is that they want the grassroots of Islam to give him the benefit of the doubt, then to rise up in anger at what the US is doing now, and start a jihad that would put him in charge over the whole world. (So far his plan seems to be failing.)

In any case Osama has taken full responsibility for other attacks that killed innocent people, so no matter how you try to turn it around, he is a self-confessed mass-murderer, and proud of it. He and his colleagues must be erased from existence ASAP, this is not revenge or hate, it's simply a sad necessity. Like shooting a rabid dog.

[Lonewalker]

Poxin -Yes, I would like to hear how governments should deal with terrorist attacks. Please indulge us with your insight.

Darklighter – Tell me what evidence governments should supply that would appease foreigners like you. You’re post about how the States and Europe were different was actually very good. If this happened to Germany, what actions would you expect?

I guess I have learned a lot about the US and the world after these attacks. Opened my eyes to the good and bad.

[Poxin]

The serial killer is a good example!

But your only looking at one perspective of it. Like you said think about a serial killer. Many of them have had traumatic childhoods or endured traumatic experiances. They were drivin to a point in which violence was the answer (sound familiar?). So if we really wanted to fix the problem we would attempt to prevent the traumatic experiances from ever happening.

Simply: Dealing with the source of the killer instead of what the killer has done.

Hey wait a minute! if we dealt with the source we could stop the people from ever becoming murderers! And then we wouldn't have to punish pain filled people for having endured shitty lives!

"Sure, there were causes for that action, but we must punish the action so people don't think they can do it and nobody's going to react." -Ragnarok

No matter how you word it it's just revenge. Dealing with the terrorists actions won't solve anything. Go to the point where you can see why the terroists have become terrorists and why they use violence to get their point across.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Poxin ]

[Lonewalker]

Poxin - No matter how you word it it's just revenge.

I guess technically you could classify what the terrorist did as revenge? They claim the US did them wrong and they learned how to fly and crash. Or am I missing something…

To me, it sounds like an "eye for eye" scenario. Human nature knows it well.

Poxin - Dealing with the terrorist actions won't solve anything. Go to the point where you can see why the terrorists have become terrorists and why they use violence to get their point across.

I guess we all could claim wrongs acts against us and then use violent actions to shed light on our causes. In a civilized country it would lead to imprisonment. That is why they live in Afghanistan.

Sometimes when people use violence to reveal their certain causes, it can only be retaliated. It kind of spends a message to those people…

But in all concern for situation. The US government should take a step back and look at this puzzle. Then again, changing the ways of the most powerful government is a little more involved then we could all imagine. Good luck to those who try.

[Ragnarok]

"They were drivin to a point in which violence was the answer" -Poxin

Wrong! One of the basis of our democratic system is that only the system can make use of the force to solve a problem.

"Simply: Dealing with the source of the killer instead of what the killer has done" -Poxin

Very nice, but... and the serial killer? what do we do with him? Oh, he had a traumatic experience, poor boooy. Let's let him free, if we are nice to him he will become a good boy.
The terrorist have killed inocent people without having any moral problems, why do you think that will change if we try to solve the problems in their countries? They won't accept our help easily, and solving the problem would take a long time. During this long period, what do we do with the terrorist? Leave them free?

[Poxin]

"I guess technically you could classify what the terrorist did as revenge?" -lonewalker

Yes you could consider what the terrorists did as revenge. Never said you couldnt. As I've said so many times already, violence makes violence.

"To me, it sounds like an "eye for eye" scenario. Human nature knows it well." -lonewalker

Human nature can be changed. We don't have to fallow what we have in the past.

"I guess we all could claim wrongs acts against us and then use violent actions to shed light on our causes." -Lonewalker

Yes you should claim wrongs against you. Actually question the things around you. What have you to loose? You only gain knowledge through question.

I hope you can all agree that there are better ways other then violence. Just because this has been the way before does not make it the only way.

"In a civilized country it would lead to imprisonment." Lonewalker

Locking people away in confined and isolated prisions is not civilized. The prison system does not work. It does not teach respect but hate and revenge. Current prisons are over populated and pointless. It costs billions of dollers to maintain. Money that could go to astablishing better education and health care. Two main influencial things that effect the general living conditions of any countrys inhabidence. The better the living conditions the less likely people are to be violent or feel the need to resort to violence.

"Sometimes when people use violence to reveal their certain causes, it can only be retaliated. It kind of spends a message to those people…"

No matter how you word it it's still revenge. In your own words you say that it sends a message. Does anyone truly believe that the bombing of a country that is enduring a 3 year drout and mass starvation is the right message we should be sending?

If so I'd love to here your reasons.

"Then again, changing the ways of the most powerful government is a little more involved then we could all imagine. Good luck to those who try." -Lonewalker

There is power in numbers and numbers are what run governments. Civilians are what run the economy. We have all of the control yet we don't use it. Correcting the government is not a task for a few but all

The US government when first astablished was for the people and by the people. every individual had the right to question and control. With many not noticing this is no longer the fact. The government controls you. You have no choice because you are never givin the choice. Despite what you are told.

Don't snap at me for these ideas. Explore them your selves. Question everything.

[roundeye]

i like all that youve been saying, poxin. but this following satement is the essence of bullshit hippie propaganda: "Human nature can be changed. We don't have to fallow what we have in the past."

cuz, well, it cant. and we cant.

work around it. theres no time for wishfull impractical thinking.

"With many not noticing this is no longer the fact."
not in the time of a fake 'war'! HAHA! so true

numbers can easily overthrough governments. hence the disarmament policies. and the misinformation campaigns. and the flag-wavin' "patriotism" (explain that to me?) bullshit.

youre a dirty westcoast pothead liberal but i love ya.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[Poxin]

I understood the post fine.

But how is it solid evidence? Just because hes stating that hes pleased and warns of more to come dosen't mean that he did it. Like I said before it's rather obviouse that there is more to come. The popular attitude apears to be guilty untill proven innocent. Which dosent alow for very accurate judgement.

I was just simply defeating your point as the videos being evidence that Osama's behind what happened.

Just because I have an opinion different from yours my words seem like those of a religious fanatic?

As far as what youve quoated I was simply stating that some things are being ignored. There are other ways of ridding the world of "terrorism" but it dosent seem that anything aside from war, hate, and revenge is being explored.

I fail to understand why people don't explore why people get the modivation to fly themselves into buildings. The focus always seems to be on the fact that it happend and some one should pay for it.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Poxin ]

[Poxin]

No need for insults roundeye. You can call me what ever you wish or attatch labels to my opinions but it won't achieve anything.

I too could point and push names but what does it acomplish?

I've explained in many different posts what I think we should do about terrorism (hence the topic of the thread) and I feel I may just start repeating my self.

I fail to understand why it's impractical. Even further confused about why theres no time to question things and bring about new ideas.

[starfish]

oki, to bring some reflection on what this
thread is about, here comes some
interesting links:

A PAGE OF QUOTATIONS FROM VARIOUS PERSONAGES http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/quotes.html

The Pot Calling the Kettle Black: The USA and International Terrorism http://www.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=77374

Philip Agee: The Playboy Interview
http://www.connix.com/~harry/agee.htm

The CIA's Greatest Hits http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/CIA_GreatestHits.html

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[Irfan Yunia]

Punishing criminals for their deeds forms a basic tenant of every society on earth. Yes it true that the present penal code of many counties is not working. But to even suggest the notion that those responsible for WTC should not be punished is unthinkable. Whether they are punished for revenge or justice is not the point. Whether this punishment should be meted out to most of Afghanistan is another matter.

Personally I have grave misgivings about the “targeted” bombings of the poorest nation on earth. Already we have seen many civilian causalities. But hey fuck-it, its only collateral damage!

If there is one way of creating more potential terrorists, it is by bombing the innocent. Giving people even more reason to hate us. Punish those responsible, not the entire fucking country. It’s like bombing Sicily to get rid of the Mafia.

We ignore the genuine graveness of many in the Arab world at our own peril. We choose to support their repressive and brutal regimes because our leaders tell us it is in our interest to do so. For fucks sake, what do our democratically elected leaders think they will do with their oil, drink it. No matter who is in power in the Middle East, dictators or democrats they will still sell us their oil.

We still support Israel (13 Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers today). Yes there is talk of trying to sort this mess up, but we heard it all before during the Gulf War.

In the end we will get Bin Ladin and his associates, but will we learn anything in the process, or are we doomed to repeat histories mistakes.