[Poxin]

Revenge? What do you think the attacks on september 11th were all about? Random acts of violence and evil?

I'll do what I can to find the sources of this information. Untill then if yah don't feel like believeing what I say then don't.

Untill then take a look at this:

or this

[Poxin]

The amount of people killed on september 11th pale in comparision to the amount of civilians the U.S. government has killed over it's many "needed" campains.

"The Bush administration has vowed that it will not aim the Pentagon's firepower at civilian targets in Afghanistan. Such assurances are supposed to make us think that innocent bystanders will be spared when the missiles fly and the warheads explode. Don't believe it.

Back in early August 1945, President Truman had this to say: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, in so far as possible, the killing of civilians.

Actually, the U.S. government went out of its way to select Japanese cities of sufficient size to showcase the extent of the A-bomb's deadly power. In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, hundreds of thousands of civilians died -- immediately or eventually -- as a result of the atomic bombings.

In the past several decades, presidents have routinely expressed their reverence for civilian lives while trying to justify orders that inevitably destroyed civilian lives. Denial is key to the success of public-relations campaigns that always accompany war.

While top U.S. officials spoke of fervent desires to protect civilians from harm in Southeast Asia, the Pentagon inflicted massive carnage on the populations of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Both Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon tirelessly proclaimed their eagerness for "peace with honor." Most of those who died were civilians.

When U.S. troops invaded Panama in December 1989, the USA's major media and policymakers in Washington ignored the hundreds of civilians who died in the assault. Scarcely more than a year later, during the Gulf War, most of the people killed by Uncle Sam were civilians and frantically retreating soldiers. Pentagon officials quietly estimated that 200,000 Iraqis had died in six weeks. During the past decade, damage to Iraq's civilian infrastructure and ongoing sanctions have cost the lives of at least several hundred thousand children.

In the spring of 1999, we were told, the U.S.-led bombing of Yugoslavia aimed only at military targets. The explanations were often Orwellian -- not just from the Clinton administration and NATO, but also from news media.

Consider the opening words of the lead front-page article in the New York Times one Sunday in April 1999: "NATO began its second month of bombing against Yugoslavia today with new strikes against military targets that disrupted civilian electrical and water supplies..." The concept was remarkable: The bombing disrupted "civilian" electricity and water, yet the targets were "military" -- a very convenient distinction for PR purposes, but irrelevant to the civilians who perished due to destruction of basic infrastructure.

Now, while people in Afghanistan fear missiles and bombs, their lives are most threatened by a dire lack of food. The likelihood of a large-scale assault has already forced aid organizations out of the country -- "fearing both that they may be caught in the expected raids or that they would be attacked as westerners after the NATO bombers have flown away," says Chris Buckley, the Christian Aid program officer for Afghanistan. He adds that the nation "is in the grip of a three-year drought and on the verge of mass starvation. According to the UN-run World Food Program, by the end of the year 5.5 million people will be entirely dependent on food aid to survive the winter. That's a quarter of the Afghan population."

In human terms, the emerging U.S. military scenarios are ghastly. And -- with Washington already gaining Pakistan's agreement to cut off food aid to Afghanistan -- they're also illegal. Part IV of the Geneva Conventions clearly states that "starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited." The same document forbids targeting "objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population
"

That and many other articals at this site.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Poxin ]

[Freddio]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Freddio ]

[Freddio]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Poxin:
The amount of people killed on september 11th pale in comparision to the amount of civilians the U.S. government has killed over it's many "needed" campains.

---

So you are saying two wrongs make a right?
Must you always think there is a hidden agenda, must you think that the media and the government is always 100% decieving. Do you think they are going out of their way to kill civilians like the terroists did on the 11th?

Some people think that they will be really cool and think "hey im not gonna swallow this Cnn propaganda, because thats all it is, these terrorist were justified to commit such acts, because America is so bad and the government doesnt care about anyone but America" Sure a lot of it is propaganda but you alot of what cnn talks about is worthy material.


food for thought..


[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Freddio ]

[Lonewalker]

It comes down to this. They are picking on the guy that is at the top and most visible.

Terrorism is nothing new and it has been going on for a long time. It seems every organization or terrorist has some reason to avenge a wrongdoing.

Britain during its empirical reign had many such acts against it. The IRA has been a thorn in its's side for years.

America as the world’s only super power is feeling the effects of the world watching it’s every move. It just comes with the job...

Other nations can of course whine and groan about injustices. Their influence barely crosses their borders. America likes to gets its hands in everything and this will only lead to problems in a world like ours.

Look for nations like China and an United Europe to taste the coming burden of leading a forgetful world. No longer will injustices only be heard within their own borders but will be blasted to every home and nation across the world.

It all about visibility and shallow perception. America just has too much of it and it is time we step back and let the other nations walk the talk.

Ohh, how easy it is to be self-righteous and have a selective memory! The Europeans have always been ones to look past their history and look else where for the world’s problems.

Some of us can recall what happens when nations have a taste of the power America has had since 1945. Sure, injustices have taken place that would turn all our stomachs. Infact, our government is reaping what it has sown.

But! If you think for one moment what America could be if it had chosen a path other than Imperialism. Yes, maybe the world would not be such a pretty place to live for some.

Hmm, maybe world domination? I think certain European and Asian countries would fit that bill.

The point, America could be worse. Count your blessings forgetful world.

Poxin - You complain alot. Oh, I see you are from Canada. I have never met a nation with a worse inferior complex. I mean hey, maple syrup, Mounties, and lumber all come from Canada. These are things to be proud of, my friend! Remember, if America closed it’s border to Canada, you would all perish in a few months. So, remember the hand that feeds you! Your economy depends upon America. I mean, whom do you think you import and export too? If America falls so will Canada, you clueless lumberjack.

Trust me, terrorism is not America’s problem but the worlds. These people always need something to hate. It fills their otherwise empty stomachs with food. It gives them hope and drive for something. Maybe they should take a look at their own starving countries and think about what that means. The Taliban know a little thing or two about displaying injustice. These men make up religions in their sleep and devise it according.

The world is filled with governments of injustice and self-centered mind frames. It is guy with the most exposure and influence that will get his clock cleaned. It is just how these things work...

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Lonewalker ]

[Poxin]

Alright lonewalker,

Your country can't even provide enough power for your greedy wasteful lifstyles. California gets most of it's electricity from B.C. Canada through the means of hydro electric dams. Still it struggles with a damand for more power.

For exmaple. The recent attempt by your government to build the SE2 diesal burning power plant to ease the demand for power. The buliding site being located just across the border in washington. If it hadn't been for massive canadian protests ("complaining") that prevented it's construction. Massive amounts of diesle pollution would have (convieniently) spilled across the boarder being wind blown up the already polluted fraser vally. (Where I live)

The U.S has a major oil pipeline going through our country from alaska. Cutting the transportation and handling costs of the oil drasticly. Saving your government billions of dollers.

Like you suggested, Canada supplies your country with most of it's soft lumber. Your government in wanting more money even taxes us for doing so. WTF?

So lets just take in your closing off of the border idea and play make believe shale we.

A major source of wood has now been cut off. The demand is overwhelming and a large amount of tax money no longer reaches your government. Where yah gonna get wood for your pretty suburban homes?

The Alaskan oil pipeline is cut off and billions of dollers are lost. Your country now needs to spend the money it's been saving to transport the oil around Canadian waters by ship. Adding a possible risk of oil spills.

The electricity which california and surrounding areas needs is cut off causing massive power failers. Your government is now forced to solve the problem. Possibly building hundreds of pollution spilling power plants in an attempt to counter act the problem.

Your rich government looses billions apon billions of dollers in closing it's border to Canada.

The States needs Canada just as much as Canada needs the states.

Lets take it another step shale we?

Where are most of your products built hmmm? Pick it up and flip it over. What does it say? made in taiwan, made in china, made in japan etc.

With out the network of imports, exports, curruption and taxation your country has set up your wealthy free world would crumble and ceace to exsist. So know your place before you start finger pointing my clueless American freind.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Poxin ]

[Lonewalker]

Proxin - I have never met a nation with a worse inferior complex Sorry, I can see you have done some research to figure out why Canada does exists. Hehe - Seems like you Canadians ponder a lot why you even care to call yourself Canadians. All of it was pathetically weak and so lame. I was hoping for something better than that.

They would hate Canada as much as America, if you had a GNP greater than my back account. Why were you at the G8 summit? BTW – Thanks for the four Mounties we received for the war against Terrorism. They will be the first to go in. The Taliban will not know what hit them!

Poxin - Your country can't even provide enough power for your greedy wasteful lifestyles. - Ahh, explain to me how Canadian life differs from American? You seem to drive the same cars, same size families, and homes. Basically, the same standard of living – Certainly, a lot more lumberjacks and Mounties. But, you’re just as wasteful as we are, but you have only 30 million people living in the country. We have almost 300 million. Hmm, you do the math and see how it turns out.

Poxin - The States needs Canada more then Canada needs the states. – That has to be one of the stupidest things I have heard. How old are you? I think your lumberjack daddy has been trying to make you feel better at night.

I would discuss it more but I have the horrible American lifestyle to pursue! HAHA –We epitomize evil!

[Darklighter]

So Lonewalker, you start by saying this:

"Poxin - You complain alot. Oh, I see you are from Canada. I have never met a nation with a worse inferior complex. I mean hey, maple syrup, Mounties, and lumber all come from Canada. These are things to be proud of, my friend! Remember, if America closed it�s border to Canada, you would all perish in a few months. So, remember the hand that feeds you! Your economy depends upon America. I mean, whom do you think you import and export too? If America falls so will Canada, you clueless lumberjack."

sounds pretty hateful to me.... clueless lumberjack. Seems like you'd have a smart remark ready to stereotype and put down every country not as big, bad and all-mighty as the u.s. That's all the world is after all, a big chain of retards existing only to fuel the life of the gods in America.

"Trust me, terrorism is not America�s problem but the worlds. These people always need something to hate. It fills their otherwise empty stomachs with food. It gives them hope and drive for something. Maybe they should take a look at their own starving countries and think about what that means."

That's beaufiful man. You know, in a twisted way of seeing things, you could take that statement and match it to the U.S.'s current situation....
Revenge, justice, pfft, call it what you want, just bomb the shit out of someone.... sounds like that is what "fills your otherwise empty stomachs with food," since "These people always need something to hate."
Nobody can look me into the eye and tell me they actually think that "yes, our humanitarian efforts will help the people, while we get them a good new government so they can have peace."

and you all come back to patriotism... Patriotism is good and well, but it can be like revenge, it can blind you....

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Darklighter ]

[roundeye]

...........

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[roundeye]

*cough*

[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[Akolyte]

*comes out of hole*

*waves American Flag*

*Gets shot at by Sijun Troops*

*Runs back into hole*

*Starts drawing some more*

[Shiro_tengu]

Hey discussions and disaggreements are going to happen and we all have different opinions. Lets not attack eachother in here over it. Just make our comments and attempt to have conversations without being so reactionary. Look at some of those earlier posts. put the two guys in a room holding guns and see how long it would take for them to start shooting!

Isn't is just amazing that people run around killing eachother because of religion. Be it Catholics, prodestants, Jews, Muslims or Othodox what-have-yous. Not just lately but for thousands of years. People never learn anything.

Religion is a form of idiology. idiology is designed so that the ruling few can control the masses.

Mind you - If we removed religion from the earth and people no longer killed eachother under its name (and didnt kill eachother cos they had nothing to loose( no more fear of god)) How many people would we have in the world today? 20 billion? 100 billion? Would we than kill eachother because of overcrowding? No, people will always be killing eachother. Its what humans do.

There will never be a time where the worlds entire population lives in "harmony" It would lead to overpopulation, starvation, and god knows what else.

Best thing to do is be kind to one another and only take up arms to protect yourself, your friends, your family and your loved ones. Take care of your own basically.

[Ragnarok]

Just so you think a bit more about the power distribution:
If a country must have the power US has, which one do you think would be better than the US?

Think twice before answering.

-Ragnarok

PD: Did anybody expected US to refrain from attacking in a couple of days after the 11th? They've waited for three weeks. I, personally, didn't.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Yes, USA has done many bad things. But Roosevelt, Nixon, Johnson and the rest aren't in office right now, it's just good old monkeyface.

I know many people hate his guts here. Hard to see why the feelings are so strong. Because they know him personally? No, that's unlikely... more likely because of something they've read or heard about him, and it's cool to be negative. The general feeling seems to be, he's an evil dictator surpassing Hitler, he's ugly and a bad speaker and he probably smells bad too. Come on. He's just another ambitious guy with a famous father. Not evil, not good, just... himself.

Is Bin Laden a normal human being? Are his colleagues? The Taliban? Perhaps, but try this thought-experiment - if you had to leave a child in the care of either Bush or Osama, which would you choose? All I'm saying is, let's get some perspective here folks.

It's the Taliban who are to blame for the starvation in Afghanistan, not the US. (I know about the indirect blame USA shares there, but again, perspective - who's most to blame?)
Leaving the Taliban in power will definitely kill all those starving people. Taking the Taliban out MIGHT save some of them. Taking them out and dropping 30 tons of food a day all over the country MIGHT save even more. Are you saying we should stop the food drops?

Oh, the ulterior motives. Sure, there are hidden agendas and ulterior motives. But that doesn't automatically mean what gets done is always wrong. Polio was erased from the world way back, and the cynics will argue there was an ulterior motive to that too, I'm sure. Perhaps a conspiracy between business and politicians to rip off the common man, etc etc, bla bla. Well, so what? Got rid of Polio just the same.

We're not striking back for revenge, let's just stop bringing that up. When you find termites tearing down your house, you call the exterminator, as simple as that.
The ulterior motive? It might be that the termites are hurting the resale value of the house... but this doesn't make you a greedy corrupt evil bastard does it? Just common sense.

Yes, it's true, the exterminator may not be able to reach the main nest now... or ever. (As Irfan has pointed out, the root of the problem goes deep.) But I think we should at least try our very best before giving up. The alternative is just sitting here, smelling the flowers and singing Kumbaya as buildings explode around us, and anthrax and smallpox spreads.

[Poxin]

Of course two wrongs don't make a right. But do you think what the states is doing is right?

Like I said before. War makes war, peace makes peace. I'm not justifying that terrorist attacks because I think their right. I'm just showing that the U.S. isnt any more right for attacking back. Like you said, it's revenge. There is nothing more blind and hateful then revenge.

The U.S. has killed innocent civilians before, again and again. That's fact. Just not a publicised one. Givin the repeating pattern of this in the past what makes you think this new war is any different? Expecially seeings how it was the financial heart of the economy that was attacked. That's quite the kick in the ego if you think about it.

America dosent even care about it's own people let alone the rest of the world. They can't even astablish free health care. Canada's economy isn't nearly as vast as that of the U.S. and we have had it for years.

Like their going to go out of their way not to attack civilians, what else are they going to attack?.

Money is what drives them, money is what they care about. More the better, no matter the cost.

I like how it's seen as "cool" to not believe the mainstream media sources. Hey that guy is using his mind to question authority. That's silly!

I don't hold alot of trust in corperate controlled media. The government controls the corperations with law and the corperations control the government with money. What do you think has more power? Law, or money?

CNN may have some solid stories but not on anything to touchy. Along with fact that Cnn is largly television based. Meaning that alot of their funding comes from it. What they report is largly based on what the public wants to here and see. In this case the public has been fed revenge and hate by bush. They wish to see justice not truth. If Cnn were to report anything anti government not only would they face the government it's self but a decline in ratings and in turn a decline in money.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Poxin ]

[starfish]

maybe something worth pondering:
http://indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=74790&group=webcast

[Freddio]

Poxen are you saying that you support the taliban?

If you belive that their morals and values are above that of the US, there is something seriously wrong with you.

[Steven Stahlberg]

So now the evil dictators of USA are responsible for USSR invading Afghanistan too. Fancy that. I guess the Soviet Union never did anything wrong. The Taliban never did anything wrong. The terrorists are all excused, because it was this rotten evil empire they attacked, this armpit of the world, that has never done anything good.

A guy was driving slowly around downtown Austin the other day, at lunch time, preaching to the crowds with loudspeakers on his car. "God will destroy this evil sodomite nation!! Etcetc..." I guess he saw that website too.
Funny, though, I think this is one of the few countries in the whole world where he would be allowed to do what he did without either being shot right away, or detained, tortured and 'disappeared'. He kept it up for hours. He should try that in Afghanistan.

[Akolyte]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Stahlberg:
Funny, though, I think this is one of the few countries in the whole world where he would be allowed to do what he did without either being shot right away, or detained, tortured and 'disappeared'. He kept it up for hours. He should try that in Afghanistan.

---

He should try that in my backyard.

[starfish]

the "terrorists" are not excused.

though it seems more and more unlikely that
some angry arabs were behind the "attacks".

the people making huge profits from the events
that took place after 9/11 were the Bush family,
Cheney and a whole lot of people involved
in the Carlyle Group among others.

and lo and behold...who makes shitloads of
money from the Anthrax scare?
yup, you're right...
http://indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=75244&group=webcast
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/ootar3.html

[Irfan Yunia]

Steven:
Completely agree with you. Only in America (and perhaps some EU countries) can people freely say such things. There is no doubt that the U.S is a free and open society, it practices the most open form of government in the world. I take my hat off to it.

But many Western free democratic nations including the U.S support some of the most repressive nations on earth. Egypt has an estimated 5,000 political prisoners held without trial. Yet we the West support its government. Saudi Arabia has some of the worst human rights abuses, yet they are our friends. The Saudis in fact have a much more repressive form of government than Iran, and Saudis brand of Islam is much more restrictive than Iran. Yet we support Saudi Arabia.
Even now, in the “War” against Terrorism the US is making good friends with a brutal and repressive regime in Uzbekistan were since 1997 more than 7,000 Muslims are imprisoned most of them for such offences as praying at the wrong mosques, reading the wrong religious literature, listening to the wrong sermons - or being married to the wrong man. Political repression, show trials, and torture - inherited from the Soviet Union to crack down on any political or religious group it cannot control in widespread.
Yet we have chosen to ally ourselves with them. I don’t think the man driving downtown Austin would stand a chance in Uzbekistan
We have chosen to ally ourselves with these repulsive regimes because of our interests, our freedom, our way of life. Do you think people in those countries like being repressed? Do you think they have voted for repression?
There are many examples were real democratic governments were overthrown by their military and we supported the military. (Algeria and Turkey) We supported the Military because the “wrong” people were in power. Yet we heard very little about these coups in our “free” press. Those “wrong” people were not in our interests.
In many cases we not only choose to say nothing about such wide spread human rights abuses, we in fact choose to support those repressive regimes. Many of the repressive Arab regimes would fall if it were not for US support.
But we choose to support these repulsive and repressive governments because it is in our interest to do so. We won’t let status quo be changed in the ME because it is in our interest. We won’t support democracy in these countries because that will not be in our interest. In fact we choose to do the opposite.
So as you can see, our freedom comes at a price. Our governments repress others in order that we may live freely. So that our way of life may be better.
So please when talking about how free and great we all are in the West, think of those whose freedom we have chosen not to support.
Don’t get me wrong; I am not saying that the US is responsible for every tin-pot dictator in the world. But there are many countries, which the US and other Western powers have supported, who repress their own people. In many cases these regimes would fall if it were not for Western support.

So every time you here our democratic leader say, “in our interests” that means it’s not in the interests of some one else.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Irfan: as usual, I find myself in basic agreement with most everything you say.
But - oppressive regimes in other countries - is there anything we can do about that?

[Freddio]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Stahlberg:

But - oppressive regimes in other countries - is there anything we can do about that?

---

exactly..

[Freddio]

Off topic..
Hey Steven I saw your digital actress in that Sciene magazine, I was like what the ? wow cool

[Steven Stahlberg]

Thanks - but I want to point out - and apologize again (this was mentioned in another thread) for the fact that the body with the fur boa is not my doing, they pasted my girl's head on a real woman, idiots.

[starfish]

oops...

be careful of what kind of reading you bring
for your next flight, you may be deemed
a "terrorist"!
http://www.citypaper.net/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml

[Poxin]

Freddio you really should read more carfully. I didn't say I support the taliban. I'm saying I don't support the United States.

It's our duty as the people of a nation to question the actions of our leaders.

The attitude that what happens "over there" dosent effects us has gone on long enough. What happend on sept. 11th should ahve been the eye opener for us all. But instead many of us just slithered down into our dark holes of denial. Convinced that it wasnt out fault to ease the shock. It's easy to deny the idea that your government caused that hate people have for the states. Mainly because you just don't care. You have more "important" things to address. Like your house, your car, your cell phone bill.

[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: Poxin ]

[starfish]

while Irfan Yunia is right on most points
it's not true that "Our governments repress
others in order that we may live freely."

the laws that the Congress passes are the
foundation of the freedom of all Americans:

check the Constitution for example: http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDERAL/usconst.html

also check "the Bill of Rights": http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html

by reasoning that it's "ok" to kill or hurt
other persons in order to get rich, one is
not better than the simplest thief.

[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[Ragnarok]

quote:

---

Completely agree with you. Only in America (and perhaps some EU countries) can people freely say such things.

---

Well, I think in the democratic countries of Europe you could do that too.

I think we Europeans don't want to see what in the begining was a bunch of colonies as the perfect country. For example, people tend to forget that the first Human's Rights declaration was made in Virginia, US. They usually remember the french one, made later.

About the question I aseked (and nobody seems to think worth answering) I can't think of a single country that having the power the US has won't act worse, trying to invade other countries or using their power constantly as a reason for getting what they want.
So, even being an imperfect government, we can't blame so much, any other would be worse.

-Ragnarok

[Darklighter]

Let's compare the European Union with the U.S. for a second then....
(of course, not every country in the EU has the same views&laws, but close nuff)

1.) Most EU countries actively fight for environmental laws and educate their people why it's important to preserve it.... in the U.S., the president tells the people that the Ozone isn't a problem, sells one of the last great american forrests to the highest bidder in the oil industry, and pretty much just goes against everything he said he'd do for the environment in his campaign....

2.) Almost all countries in the EU have universal health care, the U.S. has a disease industry to see how they can profit from other peoples misfortunes.... it can be done on 10% of a country's economy, but people don't want to wake up and fight for the issue. But they blindly support wars that cost them billions of dollars each year.

3.) Most EU countries fight viciously against any genetically modified food products. In the U.S. they're everywhere and people don't even know it (or choose to ignore it, although most of them have never been properly tested). People actually had to FIGHT for legislation that would require labelling of such products, but *gasp* it didn't even pass, because food companies lobied on and on. Their plane tickets and hotel bills are tax deductible too.

4.) In the U.S. you can own a gun at age 18 (?), but can't legally drunk until you're 21....

can't diss the U.S. all the way, there's some things i like about it:

1.) You can take a right-turn if the light is red.

2.) sales tax is lower

i think that's it, i've been living in L.A. for 6 years, other than the smog and the dirtyass beaches there's not much that strikes my fancy. Before you tell me "to go home stupidass," I'm working on it.

One thing though, people are generally pretty nice here, it just makes me sad that they're so easily controlled by the people in power, while they all view themselves as patriots. I've met some really great patriots in my time here, people that gave up their jobs to join organizations that fight the corruption in the government & corporations. They're some of the most intelligent people I know, and they work for minimum wage and 3 meals/day to make this country the best it can be. I try my best not to sneer at cars with an american flag attached to them, flapping happily in the wind.... "We must show strength and support at this time of crisis, and we must support anything the government chooses to do, because that way, we don't have to think for ourselves."

aight, my daily vent is done.