[YVerloc]

Thanks for the reply.

I understand the subjective nature of 'quality' in art. But I still have to ask: Don't you have your own ideas about what you value? And don't you want to communicate that to your viewers undiluted?

Craig, I've watched you here for years. Like everyone else here, I've been boggled again and again by your astounding rendering skills. Your ability to communicate form, surface and light are highly developed. Your rendering abilities are an example where your intentions are communicated to the viewer with /high fidelity/.

So it's always perplexed me that you allow your own personal artistic values to reach the viewer with such /low fidelity/.

After all these years of watching your work, I still have no idea whatsoever about what kind of work you like. I still don't have a clear idea of what you're trying to say as an artist. Are you truly only an illustrator? I scratch my head, when I see you struggling to master watercolor, struggling to improve your shape design etc. I see you eating your proverbial vegetables, and trying to stregthen areas where you feel you need to improve. Then I see this Fireblade thing. I ask myself why you'd go to such great pains to improve the level of your artistry, if you're not able to bring all the skills already do have to bear on a project. Do you really need any more useless skills that have no market value? I'm being facetious of course.

So take it for what it's worth. You get what you pay for and all that. But if you want my honest and sincere advice, I'd suggest to you that the area of your work where you need to focus your efforts is in the area of your art business. Find a way to avoid taking work-for-hire contracts. Find a way to get a degree of editorial control over your output. Find a way to art direct your own projects. I've seen you devote so much effort developing your skills lately. I honestly cant believe that you've developed them solely to cast them in the mud as pearls before swine.

Craig, I don't want to sound harsh. But you're our champion. If you can't do this, then none of us can.

YV

[Najd]

That's... AMAZING !!
you rock...
How many time did you spend on those finished artworks ?? 'cause they rock !

[Snake Grunger]

When you draw and publish something, your production work has to be able to please as many potential customers as possible. Not all customers see what is good in a drawing or painting, they look for what they like and if it's there, there are more chances they'll put their hands on the product and take it to the cashier.

Craig, about the other stuff, if you could get back to me on it by e-mail would be great. I'm going away in 1 week so the previous address you saw won't be valid anymore. (Sorry to bother you again with this.. I simply have no other way to make sure something I want to write to you gets read hehe..)

Francis.

[NullTygre]

*practices some more*

[Gandalf-]

Very well put, digitalmar. I agree completely with everything you've said.

[yowchuan]

Really nice artworks...

Guess the internet is one good way to hold personal art exhibitions.

[Arc][Pello]

"I still don't have a clear idea of what you're trying to say as an artist. Are you truly only an illustrator?"

is it really so bad that he doesnt define his work so much that it becomes a case of "seen one seen em all" but instead branches out into other areas of thought and media?
hes only 30+ for god's sake, even Picasso admitted to the fact that he didnt achieve his goals, but only scratched the surface with the work he created thoughout his life.
Im only 18 and hopefully i have a good long career ahead of me, if i end up at the level of craig by the time im his age ill feel proud of myself and the fact that i didnt let my talents go to waste as so many other people out there end up doing.

Personally i think Craig would benefit as would the rest of the world, if he began to hold classes in this area of art. just a thought

[Lunatique]

I think it's pretty clear what Craig is into when he does his personal artwork. He posts tons of pieces in the speedpainting thread, and most of them ARE firmly rooted in the traditions of good illustration. As far as I can remember, Craig has always identified himself to us as an "illustrator." I'm sure he would feel quite uncomfortable if we were to place any expectations on him to produce "fine art." That's not what he's about.

But you never know. Maybe one day the Spoogester might all of a sudden decide to take a long-term sabbatical and get all artsy fartsy on us like Michael Whelan did.

And I liked Whelan's illustration work better than his "fine arts" work.

[digitalmar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by YVerloc:

I understand the subjective nature of 'quality' in art. But I still have to ask: Don't you have your own ideas about what you value? And don't you want to communicate that to your viewers undiluted?


Craig, I don't want to sound harsh. But you're our champion. If you can't do this, then none of us can.

YV

---

YVerloc, I understand your passion, as I'm sure most here do as well, but I don't think you're being too fair to Mr. Mullins.

The people that hire artists like Craig don't see him in the same light that all of us here do. Not to sound harsh, but to them, he's just "the art guy". He's there to perform a service to their liking. Not to what is considered good taste, not to what we may feel is better, but to what THEY think works best. Do we agree? No. Do they know what they're talking about? Maybe. After all, they were hired to help sell games. Craig was hired to provide artwork, not a work of art.

The only way he will have as much control as you suggest would be if he opened up his own ad/marketing agency. If he were boss, he would run the show. Fortunately for all us professionals, we understand that and must live with it in order to make a living. Now, if he were to put on a gallery exhibit, hell, 100% artistic integrity. Why? Because that's a setting where the art ranks #1 in priority, not sales of games/footware/automobiles/etc.

We as artists are a rare breed. How many non-artists friends out there do each of us have? Do any of them stop and drool at the artwork of Justin Sweet whenever they see an ad for Icewind Dale? They may like it, but they won't notice the brush strokes, the use of lighting, the sense of depth like we would. This is where Craig's copter comes into play. The majority of people that will see that ad will merely glance at the artwork and go straight to the headline, then the screenshots. He has fulfilled his purpose: to cause the reader to take half a second to pause before he turns the page.

This is the way it works in the real world where we get paid for what we do. That's what you need to know if you're a pro. Sad but true.

Wow. Didn't mean to go on for that long, but as a graphic designer, I know Craig's frustration while at the same time understanding YVerloc's passion.

Oh, and yes, Craig is a hero, but if you want him to seek out recognition as an artist via advertisements, you're looking in the wrong place. His recognition lies in places like this. Places where other artists praise him and new artists learn from him. That's what he's doing. Isn't that what all of us really want?

[Joachim]

I think the only way for a commersial artist to have the opportunity to do what he like is when his name is getting known.
F.ex Craig is known in the industry, a person you can hire good art from, but he's not "famous" in the sense that regular people on the street know who he is. THerefor, when someone orders an illustration from him they expect to get what they want. If you refuse at this point to give clients what they want, it's very easy to just being looked at as a stubborn and difficult artist that will loose clients.
BUT, let's say Simon Bisley f.ex. WHen people hire art from him, they only want him to do HIS own thing, because they know that what sells is that people recognize, "ah it's bisley I gotta buy this", and then suddenly his name has marketing value. The sad thing about this is that you can easily get stuck doing only one style because people don't want you to change but give the customer what they expect (who knows, maybe frazetta wanted to do something different along his career but couldn't since we all expect him to keep on rockin with the same style and motifs)

That's why I think what you are saying ,yverlock, is that you are trying to encourage artists to be stubborn and loose clients. Because, professional artist will always try to deliver as good quality as possible, but you start being difficult and demanding it won't do any good, unless you have a name with a marketing value. THat's atleast my opinion about this subject.

[mannela]

Fantastic work, as usual.
Keep on posting!

[spooge demon]

What is all this talk of famous? How and when did that happen? If I am known at all, it is in the microscopic field of digital illustration. Being a good digital illustrator is like being a "really good" over-the-hill amputee porn star- outside this biz, who cares? Even in mainstream illustration the digital side of things is looked on with great suspicion. Doesn't concern me much, though.

Advertising is not a conduit for personal expression. I am hired to read the clients mind (I am getting better at it) and make something that they would have done themselves if they were not busy doing more important things. That is it. It is a good point to why do a lot of work to improve my skills when nobody cares or can see the difference in the illustration world. That is not really true though, the more skilled I become, the more flexible I am, and I can solve the clients problems in a growing number of ways. It might be easier if my style was a little narrower, as the client would know what to expect. Might be a lot easier the more I think about it. The background can be any color as long as it's black, and I always use purple shadows and pink flesh.

But your advice to be more selective about clients is well taken, thanks! I agree.

I have had a relationship with Bungie software for quite a while. In that very narrow universe I am, indeed, famous. Marathon heads know what a CM illustration is. As such, Bungie has never art directed me at all. They just let me go and say "here comes another one!" It is a little like branding. But interestingly enough, I just did a cover of Halo 2 for Electronic gaming monthly, though Bungie. As the illustration progressed, the people at EGM got really nervous and started asking Bungie for "alternative solutions." To them I am a wrist, my "name" has no value in their universe.

I agree completely with what Joachim said. If I want to brand myself a little, I need to do work in areas where the artist's identity is part of the equation, such as comics or something. I wonder too if artist's like mead or Frazetta ever wanted to do other work under an alias.

I have often thought of what my work would have been if the pressures of earning a living had not come into the mix. I originally loved the Hudson river school, klimt, mucha, sargent. Illustration did not interest me. But it is impossible to look back and relive the pinball machine of life and say this or there is where I would have ended up.

But the other, more interesting question is why not do what you like now? Like bending a young tree, I still have the effects of years of illustration on my brain. You can't straighten the tree out to it's "original" form. The bend has become an inseparable aspect of the trees nature.

Usually the opposite problem happens. Fine artists have trouble doing illustration, but the opposite direction is hard, too.

The collaborative nature of illustration appeals to me. You are given a problem that you have to solve that you would have never dreamt up on your own. It forces you to grow. Fine artists say they choose their own tasks, but I think they end up stagnating of their own limitations. Ever heard that family makes you grow more as a person because you can't choose them, so you have to get along with them? Same idea.

Im a comin, snake...

[Frost]

Great discussion. I agree with Joachim's point of view about creating a household name for yourself Craig... as much as this can be possible; which, is not going to happen easily (if at all) in your current field of illustration. That's the thing that pisses me off a lot about working for companies... you uhm "whore" yourself to project an image for the company... and the company steals your identity in the process of you helping them with theirs. Your name never gets out there aside from those people who actually care enough to stick around for the fine-print credits. Though I understand this is where they pay is, perhaps it really WOULD be a good idea for an alias character of yours to develop an image and following in a more individualistic (?) market... like comics where the art is clearly marked as being the work of one particular artist. Companies take away your individualism and take away from you becoming more independant and selective artist -- you have to gain that back by getting YOU out there, perhaps as a side track to your main work. Something that will reach the hands of huge amounts of people where your name is in much bigger print.

I guess what I mean to say is that I beleive you can do this. You're extremely talented and experienced, and you deserve to get more out of it than what you have to live with now. The only thing you may be lacking is a 'personal style' that will appeal to the public and become recognizable trademark that will sepperate you from the rest (ie, Simon Bisley as Joachim mentioned) -- or perhaps your background in industrial design and matte-ing will be enough to set you apart. How about approaching Marvel or DarkHorse for a limited number of issues of a comic you wouldn't mind doing? Just doing covers will already be a GREAT step forward in getting yourself recognized. (This may cause conflict with your agent however... something to be careful with...)

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Frost ]

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Frost ]

[Markus]

Very informative! Thanks for taking the time to respond to all this, Craig. My 2 cents -- Having a widely recognized "name" will certainly get you a bit more freedom, but it's still client by client. All you have to do besides swap war-stories with your illustrator friends, is read Rockwell's autobiography, or biographies of N.C.Wyeth, Cornwell, Parish, or any of the other greats you'll see that they had to deal with the same "art direction" and marketing things illustrators today have to deal with. If I recall correctly, Cornwell eventually quit illustration to paint murals. One of today's great painters, Jeffrey Jones left illustration for Fine Art, so did Ray Kinstler, Richard Schmid and countless others. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

To play Devil's advocate, even having a "name" in Comics and Graphic Novels is no guarantee of artistic freedom...look at what Stan Lee constantly did to Buscema, even as Buscema's "name" and reputation grew. Or Hal Foster...the originator of Prince Valiant. Some of his best work got stolen, butchered or canned, sometimes simply "to put him in his place". Sienkiewicz mentions clients art-directing him much like Craig's work in this thread. Whether or not we like it, as "illustrators" we're usually just hired guns.

On the other hand, I spoke with William Stout a couple of years ago and asked him why he didn't do more comic work, since he was so good at it -- was it creative freedom? He said actually, it was simply financial. He'd learned that other types of work generally paid a lot more than comics, especially being involved in concept work for films, theme parks, etc. and he couldn't make the kind of living he needed from comic work.

Now, as "concept artists" I've learned there's generally more freedom, 'cause what you're telling people you're selling is "ideas", not pictures (illustrations)--even though you're usually doing mostly the same stuff. Art Directors, clients, etc. want to classify you,(imho). If you're known as "the concept guy" like Feng, or Stephan Martiniere, or even Justin Sweet, etc. you usually get a lot more latitude. Companies are always looking for new ideas - but they don't usually consider "illustrators" in that category. Wierd and shallow, but true in my experience. One of my friends, a "concept guy", told me to never call myself an "illustrator" --- it's perceived as "downstream" he said, regardless of the great history of creative thinking in illustration. If you want to be on the creative end of things today, and have more creative license, you want to be "upstream" - classifying yourself as a "creator" or "concept guy".

Just some more logs for the fire ...umm, was that a grenade being thrown in my direction?

<edit>
hmmmm...sidetrack?? I think this is still mostly on the topic of process and illustration/client options...this whole post is about more than just the images...ah well, so it goes, some will get it, some won't...and there's always another opinion.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Markus ]

[micke]

Very interresting read! Have'nt read all of it yet, but i just wanna through my 2 cents in
before i go home and finish reading it all..

I enjoy doing most of the things i do (proffessional work), the reason for this is that i'm feeling that i'm pushing myself harder and do things i've never would have thought of doing (sorry to repeat you Craig) because my personal taste sometimes have a tendency to come in the way..I've done alot of things that i don't always agree with, but then again my taste is not what
matters..The customer/Artdirector taste is what really matters. Still i feel that i often add some of "me" into the work
Just a little. just enough satisfaction for me to keep going. As long as it don't interfare with the original idea or concept.
It's easy to get upset if the finished work ends up like a weird collage between 3 different concepts + that the marketing guys has added their finishing touches, but who can blame them? Put yourself in their position.

I try to take my experiences from working proffessionally into my personal artwork, wich is one of the main reasons for me doing art in the first place. I feel that my personal art gets more solid and also i have more choices, solutions, and possibilies to choose from. It's medicine for me(sometimes it taste bad, but it do me good)..

If i would just do work-related stuff i would die inside..I'm not a machine and i need that small privacy and freedom in my sparetime to do whatever i want without people interfaring with what i do.
If i could reach out to people through mye personal work, i would be flattered, but it's not a motivation or must for me and i don't feel a pressure at all to do so. It's all mine.
Therefore i feel that illustration is a good thing for me because it helps me to stay sharp, never
to stand still.
1 example is that i've always felt that backgrounds have been one of my weakest points and if
if i someday get a illustration job wich includes a big scenario with landscapes, buildings, etc i would still try to do my best. When i was younger i would probably have made it into something that i would feel more secure doing. I remember when i was around 16, 17 i often drew people without feets because i did'nt feel comfortable drawing feets. i was afraid of drawing feets that did'nt look right and i'd rather put my main focus in other places that i felt i could do better. I'm glad that i don't think this way anymore, i was very limited back then and still is in many ways, but atleast i'm aware of that and i know what to do about it.

Please keep this discussion alive!

PS.
Craig, i really enjoyed your chopper pics alot(I liked all of them to be honest)

Cheers!

-Mikael

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: micke ]

[Neuromanzer]

Damn, don't u guyz think we kinda got off da subject? This thread is about Craig Mullins copter ad, before, during and after. I feel it got on the melodramtic side. It should be simple, he was hired, did the work, some changes and got paid. He happy. This is too much -- Jeff Jones and whoever else. We all go/went through this: get hired and get laid off, or get fired. Who gives a s***. Somehow, along the way just because we draw and paint think we should get our arses wiped. How vain! Terms like illustrator, artists, and lately "concept artists" its all the same. We're all whores who chase after fleeting glory/fame and money. I had my share of glories and failures but lets not kid ourselves.

I've found one thing and that is doing good for the humanity. And how many "artists" are helping to propagate that?

Ed--

The Art of Ed Lee

[Andromeda]

I'm a freelancer .. i do it for the money ...

[Danny]

Well said Neuromanzer!


ps. Good work Craig.. I'm well impressed!

[Arc][Pello]

This thread has turned into something else completely

[Frost]

Ed: Yes, the topic sidetracked to discussing about further career options in order to better his exposure, so what? You think this isn't a helpful discussion? Maybe it doesn't belong in this thread, but, alas, it happened.

"I've found one thing and that is doing good for the humanity. And how many "artists" are helping to propagate that?" -- no offense, but, please... what good for humanity are you doing modeling, animating, and painting shit? I doubt anyone here is a scientific artist mapping the stars or documenting anatomy like Leonardo da Vinci did. We're only contributing to the decline of real-life values by creating more entertainment related crap. A garbage collector is doing more good to humanity than we are. Now how's THAT for a sidetracked topic? -- and, no offense.

Where is YOUR name on the Blur website? -- THAT is the point I was trying to raise in my last post with regards to Craig and his work. I think people of his calibre deserve a little more exposure and better self-branding in order to make the best of his talent value-wise, generating more income for himself, giving him more work possibilities and getting to be more selective about the projects he wishes to participate in.

But I'm a nobody, so I'll shut up. I'm through 'sidetracking' this thread.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Frost ]

[micke]

I agree, Frost. I can't really see how this is irrelevant in any way..

-M

[-HoodZ-]

well said frost...so am i wrong for saying that more exposure = respect

[Anthony]

Saw this posted on a gaming forum - is this your cover Spooge? The background seems to have a similar texture to some of yours.

[Arc][Pello]

thats his alright i want to see the real standaloan version now craig, now i say!

[AliasMoze]

Well I like the helicopters, of course. It's all been said, but your rendering is incredible. That Halo image is interesting. Spooge, who chose the "long lense" look? It's an odd choice, IMO. It's cool that you can paint in French as well, though

As for the artist's rights discussion, I agree that -if an artist wants fame- he'd better go where the artist is revered. Of course, those areas are usually more crowded, so...

But I do take issue with the Frazetta comparisons. I mean, Frazetta, Rockwell, really famous illustrators - these guys communicated as well as they rendered, and they managed to touch regular viewers on a personal level. In other words, Frazetta is more than a guy who successfully "branded" himself. Let's not diminish his work.

I think our Spooge can get there, but it's more than just marketing. Right?

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: AliasMoze ]

[Arc][Pello]

"It's cool that you can paint French as well"

what are you on about????

[spooge demon]

Ed,

I hope I understood what you were saying, but here goes...

I agree with you, as I said, in the bigger picture, even just the "art" bigger picture, we are fleas on a dog. But as you have worked at studios that have bent you over a chair, you know that you can work 8 hours a day making someone else rich or work 8 hours and some portion goes into your "bank" (I don't mean strictly money). Freelance work is a step in this direction. I have been very careful in my life to not make commitments of any kind that would limit my options. I know of some guys who get that first big check out of school and put it down on a Porsche. Then they have to get a job to make the payments, then a cute girl comes along and you have a mortgage and other debts that need REGULAR payments. So it is of to the studio employer and long hours and a controlled future. It is hard getting out of that, and some succeed in doing it. Look at the boutique spin-offs that ILM generates.

So the discussion, to me, is what do you do to enhance the freelance situation? Copyright, work for hire, usage, are all up for negotiation, and you have to be an advocate for yourself because those whom you are negotiating with are aggressively looking out for their own interests. I don't think it is an act of ego to do this. At one time I did, but not anymore. Negotiate because you can. But as I am a really awful negotiator, I have someone do this for me. A Disney lawyer would have me for breakfast. And they do try the "uppity artist" thing from time to time. Don't buckle, call their bluff, you will win most of the time. The clients perception of the level of your work will be enhanced by you not caving. I have had clients that refuse to work with me because I have representation. You want price and terms to scare away about 20% of clients. Then you know you are in roughly the correct position. Of course, that presupposes that there is enough work coming in, but that gets us back to marketing, and later, branding.

But the idea of doing a Thomas Kincaid makes me want to puke, I would rather man a quickie mart than that. But that is a fault of mine. And maybe underneath that is the pride that you correctly scorn. So get over myself, sell it like soap You too!

I hope this does not sounds condescending or anything, I realize that you are a professional with much experience, so forgive me if you already know all this stuff.

Aliasmoze- I never would think of myself or my potential in the same breath as those guys. I am not there, nor will I be. And besides, the images that I like have a fairly narrow appeal. I guess Frazetta does as well, but that makes hime even more amazing that he invented a genre that did not really exist and made it widely popular. But of course Rockwell is about 1000 times more well known than Frazetta, but the subject matter and style was specifically designed to have very wide appeal.

oops. forgot that halo thing. This was done under some tight pressure, basically a weekend. The lens was Bungie's choice, I kinda like it. The client, EGM, thought the figure blended in too much with the BG and were close to not using it. I would have preferred to loose the figure even more.

pulled link


Cool! a ruckus! the illustration was supposed to be an exclusive for Ziff-Davis EGM. The French mag cover that was above (also pulled I see) was not authorized. Heads will roll, I suppose.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: spooge demon ]

[BooMSticK]

well.. sorry for not adding anything to the discussion, but I just had to say that the Halo painting kicks butt.
,boom

[Gecko]

very interesting. like someone said before, not enough people say it out loud how useful your advice is, even though it comes in small comments whenever you post a thread. i appreciate it and there's a spooge.txt on my desktop so it doesn't all sink in the sijun abyss.

[Malachi Maloney]

All I can say is, thanks so much for this thread. I've learned so much from both the incredible art work and the conversation.

And I would like to second Boom's thoughts on the Halo illo. That piece kicks serious ass.

~M~