[ceenda]

Visigoth: Wow, more bum-banditry in one posting than I've read in an entire forum...

[Mezoic]

mk's post is as true as it gets. this is a soup opera, and im glad i am not a part of it.

[Breakerboy2]

I think you might be onto something Lunatique. Not only would that help those posting to get feedback of a more consistent nature, but it would help those perusing the forums for interesting work to have a better idea of what kind of quality to expect.

There are drawbacks as well, but there has to be a compromise somewhere.

[spooge demon]

Yea to dad for his cable modem...

"Anything you can do to prevent this board from sijun-ing. I think the internet finally caught up with it. I have had enough, it is now totally a swamp. That jackball and the castle and the flames in every thread... Too much"

I really do feel this way. I just about posted this on Sijun with "goodbye" in the subject. Why didn't I post it here? To what effect? To add my bile to the rest of it? The accepted method of leaving a forum seems to be to simply leave. I stated this on Lumental as a request to the admins to police things a little more strictly than sijun. I was very angry and frustrated over that castle (and a few other) thing(s). The arrogance of that individual and those who thought nothing was wrong there really had me PISSED. That and I had been doing heavy lifting for 18 hours. BAD Mood.

Why did I not write the admins here about my opinion? Peoples opinions are so important to them My opinion and yours does not matter a bean. I can just see all the indignant, whining, endless letters filling up the admins mailboxes. So and so hurt my feelings, blah blah. Who the hell am I to tell them to change? This place is run as it is for a reason, and if it does not fit into my comfort zone, too bad. Would not waste the admins time with my whining. Given that the admins at lumental see sijun as a reference point, I posted there, asking that they don't let it happen here.

You can have freedom or you can have order. You can have justice or mercy. You cannot have both. Which is better? Those are up to your individual values, there is no right and wrong. Go where the temperature is right for you. This is better for everyone than bitching that where you are doesn't suit and you want it changed.

My answer was always to just ignore all the crap and focus on signal and not noise. Ya know, don't be part of the problem, but part of the solution? Lota good that did me.


When Snake Grunger invited me to Lumental, I had the impression that it would be an OPEN board in the near future, that bad behavior would be policed. I was not under the impression that membership would be strictly limited to some mysterious criteria. This is some thing I cannot agree with. If this is the case, I don't see much point in participating there.

I have said before I like crits of my work from EVERYONE. All skill levels, all styles, all interests. Everybody. If you like it, say so, if not, say why. Simple

Medocrity breeds equality? Snake, think about what you are saying. As have said countless times here, I believe there is no such thing as good art. It is an illusion. One persons mediocrity is anothers genius. Mediocrity only has meaning if you define it in very narrow terms, and this is a very bad thing to do. Is synj mediocre? I love his stuff. Would he make "the cut?" You cannot support this line of thinking if you any more than scratch the surface.

I don't see much point in participating here if all ever get is fan-boy blowjobs or abuse from others because of it. jeesh... How the hell am I supposed to control how people react to me? And really, I think I do get a lot of very useful feedback, even between the extremes.

I really, really like that there are MANY people here, and that 4500 people can act as civilly as they do guess is pretty amazing.

I do like the fact that the smaller board has a slower pace that you can actually follow and participate in. You cannot do that here, and I see no solution.

Someone pointed out that I posted some sketches on lumental and that they were *gasp* not what he expected out of almighty spooge demon. This is the kind of thing that really disappoints me. I don't want to be spooge demon. Could you maybe just judge the work and not in the context of who did it? Could I post those sketches here? I used to feel comfortable doing that. Not now. I miss that.

I am not part of "the elite of Sijun" or anywhere else. This whole line of thinking makes me nauseous. These are monikers placed by people for manipulative effect. My behavior here has not warranted this slur.

I have spent a lot of time here trying to help people, and I think that I have, to some extent. I don't appreciate what has happened. I tried to change my name (idiot, think that was going to help). As I have said before, I have mostly wanted to be left alone to do my art and to share my enthusiasm for art with others. And now I am an asshole. So be it.

[shahar2k]

Craig, I think what he meant by the comment about your posted work not being enough was not criticism aimed at you but rather at the fact that yet again you get blind praise for anything you do, I rather liked the "worthless sack of puss" or whatever namechange you took on before, because the pictures took me by suprise, and I know, it's not the greatest thing to say, but when clicking on a spoooge thread here on sijun you get a sort of expectation based on experience, this goes both ways, when you click on a Frost thread you expect a pinup, Rinaldo - a painted creature... so on.... we could always completely ommit the name of the poster from the initial thread, limiting that kind of segregation completely! but people like their egos, they like to show off, they like to come up with pretty, and clever titles next to their name, and most likely will not want to give that up

perhaps that is the solution? starting up a board in which all the threads begin with a title but no name, and never revealing who drew what? people will have no choice, you would be forced to look at pictures not knowing what to expect, (beyond judging the title)
I like to crit, I like to give my 2 cents, i do that whenever I think the person could be helped by somone of my meager skill, and has the will to improve... which isn't much... but what I do is I go through EVERY picture, regardless of who posted it, I have seen every post on the finished art, and it takes a considerable amount of time to do so, but I have been able to stay with the pace so far, ignoring names, ignoring excuses about the picture in the thread itself, I just take a good look, if it grabs my eye, or I see an obvious flaw, then I post, but otherwise, I would just like to thank the people still on here for giving me inspiration, a laugh, even thank them for letting me shake my head in sorrow at their lack of skills, because I know that they might improve later (heh I hated Isric's early work, but he sure has improved over this last year or two)

I hope I got some Ideas rolling, I hope I gave somone a headache, I hope I wasted somone's last minute by giving them something to read, this is a community created by content, not by personalities, lumental missed the point.

*steps off the soapbox*

[ceenda]

Aye lad, here here!

Yes, I think someone just hit the nail on the head. Very good idea IMHO.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: ceenda ]

[Flinthawk]

Well said, Craig. I certainly understand where you are coming from and your reasons for doing what you have done. Something you said made me think though...

quote:

---

Originally posted by spooge demon:

I am not part of "the elite of Sijun" or anywhere else. This whole line of thinking makes me nauseous. These are monikers placed by people for manipulative effect. My behavior here has not warranted this slur.

---

I just wanted to point out that, while I agree with this statement, the flip-side to this statement can help shed some light on how some here might feel about all this. When comments are made on this new forum about how the 'better' part of sijun made its way there how are the rest of the people here supposed to feel? I would like to think that there are many whose behavior here has not warranted this slur, to be referred to in a negative manner. It's a disservice to those out there that did so much to try and make this place work.

I'm not sure if there are any out there that feel this way or not... As for myself, I can put all things aside and continue on the way I have before...I have tried to stay a third party to all this mess and the above thoughts are just one side to this thing, the side that I believe is caught in the middle. This was just a point that I felt the need to illuminate. Hope it wasn't too confusing, I know I can ramble

-Flinthawk

[S4Sb]

Lunatique: Post a new thread to discuss the new system. It gets down the drain here.

[Joachim]

oh, heh, I haven't noticed this thread before today. a lot of fuzz.

The funny thing after reading it all, is that it seems like I'm suppose to feel similar to if I'd cheat on my wife or something....maybe this has been blown a bit out of it's proportions ?

Though, I agree that you need to be accepted through an application form on the lumental board, is worng. Who's qualified to judge such a thing ?
But, having said that, if people would like to be so childish to say that those they once respected has showed a different side, I don't care, that's the most stupid thing I've ever heard. I for one, and I think I can speak for everyone at lumental, nobody started there because they feel they are above someone else.
Personally I've almost stopped reading sijun, because it's just too much for me. Too much threads, too much people, too much bitching, just too much of eveything. But, I felt sad that I had to stop keeping in touch with so much great people that I liked chatting with and sharing art, because I just didn't have the interest to be on this forum. So, my option was, stay on a smaller more peaceful place, or not being part of any (?) ....
In my opinion, more or less everyone writing on this thread would be more than welcome on lumental, that's not the point, they've stopped permitting members at the moment because of all the fuzz, but that will change I guess.
But, I can understand their dilemma, either it has to be to controlled, or everyone will just move from this place to their and it will all become the same as this, just with a new wrapping.

Just don't classify me or the guys hanging there as [elite] or any other stupid things like that, I've never said anything like that or pretended to be anything more than anybody else, that's your words.

To be really frank, fgfx, since you started this thread, your type of behaviour is what I have problems with. I don't mind how you act, but the type of forum you are creating.....since the only thing you've done as I've seen, is bitching and behaved rude. I've kept myself away from your posts, but you act so loudly that eventually the whole place turns into what you wants to make it. I don't blame you alone, I just don't like this type of behaviour. But instead of fighting back, I prefer to step back.

[micke]

Thank you

[Poprocksz]

I think we all just started hanging out at
Random Musings too freakin' much...

Just go back to viewing the Art and not let "Random" shit
effect this great place anymore....

All day today I just looked at art and said
comments when I felt right.....

I got the feeling back that I lost.......my love of art...

I was pissed at first...
I don't care anymore if they leave...
I just wanna chill.....

[gLitterbug]

Dear Spooge you have my highest respect, both as an artist and as a person and I hope you read this. I want to explain what I meant, because I think you did not really understand what I wanted to say.

As I saw the lumental forum, one of the first things I thought was, that it seems like that would be a good place for you, because I had the impression that you couldn�t stand the fanboy praise on sijun any longer, in recent times.

But when I read the thread I was referring to, what did I see? Not that I think the "very basic paintings" you did there are bad, but I think if you would�ve posted those here on sijun I would have made a more constructive comment than you got on lumental, as there is as much fanboy praise in each of the 2 replies you got there as if you woul�ve posted them on sijun and amateur-artists would have commented.
When I was reading that thread I thought that it seems like you don�t mind getting fanboypraise from the "elite" but don�t want to get it from the "Mob". That was something I was not happy about. I hope you understand what I mean.

Another thing I want to add is that I judge your work by how I like it and not whom it�s done. The 3 paintings are somewhat too basic for me. I think they are good excercises for how little strokes are necessary to give a good impression of whats going on.
If another artist would have posted them, I would have congratulated him on his ability to express that much with so little strokes, but he wouldn�t have seen any praise from me and so wouldn�t have you, simply because I don�t like such "extreme basics only" paintings in general.
I admire you for your understanding of light,values and colors and all that things and I really love many of your paintings, but I don�t really think you�re a God or something.
As you say in some of your posts, you�ve got way more years of experience than most of us here and that is the reason because you are soo good in some areas. I�m sure that it is not only that why you are so good, but it�s the reason for the perfection of some of your abilities.

There are surely more than enough things that other artist are better at than you are and I won�t treat you as an �ber-god and blindly spill out fanboy praise, but if I praise you then because I like one of your paintings because and ONLY because I like the painting itself, regardless of who painted it.

But I�m afraid I won�t get any chance to comment on your paintings in the future as you�ll leave sijun and I�m not allowed to post at lumental. I hope you continue posting them there, because then I can at least look at them.

If you really leave an I don�t have a chance to give my 2 cents on any of your drawings in the future I want to thank you, for all your tips and tricks and good things you contributed to this place, for all funny comments and simply for being one of my idols.

And I think I speak in the name of all of us here, when I say you are FAR from being an asshole.

[henrik]

Found out about this thread today.
I've been reading most threads since OCTOBER 1999. (Those were the days).
So now it's time to just watch the temple fall? No i sure hope not. A part of my life will be lost. Sounds pathetic, but i kinda enjoyed reading things here every now and then. Guess i'm not good enough...=(

[Blitz]

Painting has opend up a whole new world to me in my art. All I use to do was pencil drawings. Thanks to this place and all the great frinds I have met here I think I have improoved a great deal.

I loved this place for what it was.

Oh....
Quick Tip Time.
To stop a flam war you must simply not participate in it. Its hard to not participate though, becuase you want to be heard. But I know flaming has become a big problem here. So if you spot it...just dont join in.

Other than that. Im just gana keep doing art for the sake of improovment and not for the sake of getting excepted at a special resort for fine artists.

Blitz...I to was never invited *shrugs*, and hey, thats ok. YOU have to love what YOU do.

Have fun....if you do that...all will be good.
Ciao Yall

[Spitfire]

Lets put everyone who isn't as good as the "Gods" on trains and deport them to annihilation camps. You guys are just as pathetic as the 12 year olds screaming how 1337 they are on counter-strike.

Fuck this elitist shit. Now i remember why i took a hike far away from this place. Die. Slowly.

[micke]

enough..

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: micke ]

[Enayla]

Here we go.

Please, people - as much as I think that everyone has the right to discuss this matter, if this doesn't calm down, I'm closing the thread.

I'm really sorry.

[wayfinder]

there has been a way for a mediocre artist to get into lumental, and he did.

[ceenda]

wayfinder: harsh

[faustgfx]

more like artists.

[wayfinder]

ceenda, the truth sometimes is.

i kinda reluctantly admire his clever move though, and to give him credit, he's trying hard.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: wayfinder ]

[Binke]

AND IM THE ONE GETTING INSULTED! WEEE!!!
AND OMG MY CAPSLOCK IS ON AGAIN! WHAT HAS THE WORLD COME TOO!!! *fart*

[Awetopsy]

ok after giving this some thought, I want to post one last thought here.

I was wrong.

I still havent even seen this lumental forum so I really have no right to make any judgements about the motives or actions taken by any of the lumental forum goers. as it stands I would love to see the forum and go to see the great artwork. thats it.

Frost, Loki, Stahlberg, Craig, whoever else, Im sorry. I made a mistake in judging that way.

I will be honest, though, that it struck a little close to home that some of us work our butts off to improve our art and It really seemed like you guys were giving us the snuff.

I do still agree with Faust on this, the fact that somebody was hurt in this debate is not cool. But Im not gonna pass blame for something I know nothing about.

I really dont like the idea that you, Craig and Loki and Stahlberg and Grunger etc... would leave because Ive always repected your art. (you too Frost)

To be completely honest Im still trying to make sijun the place I think it could ideally be.

Im not trying to get into lumental, purely for the reason that I dont really relish the idea that I might be called an elitist.

But i will say, Im really sorry for branding all of you with that iron, when I really didnt know very much about this whole thing.

If you think im just kising butt here or something, so be it, Im just merely trying to help smooth things over so wwe can all get on with art.

Enayla, Sumaleth, Dhab: I hope Im not on your list of people to watch out for

[wayfinder]

binke, not from me though

[Binke]

I know and I kiss you!

[Binke]

People just takes some things too seriously.

Everyone should really lay down a nice big fart, and smell it.. SMELL IT.

[Isric]

My name is Matt Rhodes, you all know me as Isric. I am a registered member at Sijun.com and a registered member at Lumental.com. I started reading this post, but after two pages I got bored and skipped to the end. Please allow me to explain my possition, as it would seem there's quite a problem in some of your minds:
I was invited to a Forum devoted to pure growth. Every artistic endevour is met by intellegent critiques, powerful new information, and encouragement from people in the field (what Sijun used to be). Am I wrong for wanting that again? Am I an elitist pig because I want to grow? In a barrel full of crabs, the crabs will begin climbing to the top. They get closer and closer, but the fishermen don't worry. Soon enough another crab pulls it down in order to scramble over it. They know that not one crab will every escape because no matter what, they'll be pulled down by another one soon enough. I want to be taught, mentored, and if Sijun can't do that for me anymore am I evil for wanting to go somewhere else? If you NEVER heard of Lumental life would continue as normal, and there are probably dozens of Forums like lumental that you've never heard a whisper of.
My intention is to learn and grow at lumental, and to teach and inform at Sijun.
There is no more learning here, and I would like to change that. But right now I'm not that good. If I can learn in one place, turn around and share that knowledge with flegling artists here at sijun, I hope that would be alright.
PS my personal appologese to everyone who was offended. If by being a part of this internet art school I've insulted you, please accept my most sincere 'I'm sorry'

[Binke]

Very well said Isric.

[mjmcchesney]

*smells fart*


mmm. now to go make fart art.

[Binke]

That's the spirit lad!!!