[marky]

Elitism ?

sorry for opening another thread on this subject , but the other one is approaching 100

heres some quotes

"Anything you can do to prevent this board from sijun-ing. I think the internet finally caught up with it. I have had enough, it is now totally a swamp. That jackball and the castle and the flames in every thread... Too much" Craig Mullins

I wanted to regroup these talents and give them a fresh, secluded and relaxed home where they could calmly post and get pertinent replies from fellow artists." Frost err.. "fresh secluded and relaxed" does that sound like an estate agent or is it just me!

I think it was inevitable that this would happen, because this forum has become a huge monster, like every other "kiddies" forum with people often showing no basic respect for each other. Everyone wants a piece of the pie.

But freedom in any forum leads to a much better spirit, where people can say ANYTHING and not feel inhibited. There will always be a fear associated with any Elitism. Its the first nail in the coffin of a positive outlook to restrict this, and its so easy to forget that everyone has to start somewhere.

Ok I think Sijjun forum IS a pain in the arse in a lot of ways (not least cause its so slow), but its free for everyone to post here. Yeah there are a lot of assholes who you have to plough through to get to the good stuff. Maybe some more moderation is the answer to this?


Can I ask the most obvious question - why didnt Frost or SnakeGrunger make an announcement here. maybe "OK we have started a new forum, its not intended to offend anyone, its just a place where we can post, and avoid all the BS". sure they would have got flamed, but whats the whole mentality behind secrecy?


Surely they have selected FAR too small a range of people too . I think we all know who person A is! excuse me but WTF!! how on earth can they exclude someone like that. its a kind of Animal Farm scenario, its amazing how quickly a little power goes to someones head, and personal preferences can play a part.

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: marky ]

[FatPenguin]

Fuastgfx obviously knows some things the rest of us don't, and it's very possible that he has some legitimate reasons for being pissed off.

Now, too everyone else whining:

you have NO reason to complain. I've heard a lot of 'the only way i can learn is through critique' crap, and that's just a lie. 90 percent of the people here could improve faster if they spent the time that they do reading critiques into just drawing and painting more.

You feel hurt because you used to be socializing with these masters, and now they've gone off and left you. who cares? They are really good artists, but not spectacular people. You should be happy that you can see more of their paintings, not sad because you can't directly suck up to them anymore.

I don't post much to boards, but i do like reading them. And the stuff i like most are the times i get to read several of the 'greats' discussing a particular topic, or commenting on a particular painting. By reading Lumental we can be guaranteed to find threads like that every day.


on the other hand... I guess we won't be seeing any fast pigs in lumental

[spooge demon]

Yea to dad for his cable modem...

"Anything you can do to prevent this board from sijun-ing. I think the internet finally caught up with it. I have had enough, it is now totally a swamp. That jackball and the castle and the flames in every thread... Too much"

I really do feel this way. I just about posted this on Sijun with "goodbye" in the subject. Why didn't I post it here? To what effect? To add my bile to the rest of it? The accepted method of leaving a forum seems to be to simply leave. I stated this on Lumental as a request to the admins to police things a little more strictly than sijun. I was very angry and frustrated over that castle (and a few other) thing(s). The arrogance of that individual and those who thought nothing was wrong there really had me PISSED. That and I had been doing heavy lifting for 18 hours. BAD Mood.

Why did I not write the admins here about my opinion? Peoples opinions are so important to them My opinion and yours does not matter a bean. I can just see all the indignant, whining, endless letters filling up the admins mailboxes. So and so hurt my feelings, blah blah. Who the hell am I to tell them to change? This place is run as it is for a reason, and if it does not fit into my comfort zone, too bad. Would not waste the admins time with my whining. Given that the admins at lumental see sijun as a reference point, I posted there, asking that they don't let it happen here.

You can have freedom or you can have order. You can have justice or mercy. You cannot have both. Which is better? Those are up to your individual values, there is no right and wrong. Go where the temperature is right for you. This is better for everyone than bitching that where you are doesn't suit and you want it changed.

My answer was always to just ignore all the crap and focus on signal and not noise. Ya know, don't be part of the problem, but part of the solution? Lota good that did me.


When Snake Grunger invited me to Lumental, I had the impression that it would be an OPEN board in the near future, that bad behavior would be policed. I was not under the impression that membership would be strictly limited to some mysterious criteria. This is some thing I cannot agree with. If this is the case, I don't see much point in participating there.

I have said before I like crits of my work from EVERYONE. All skill levels, all styles, all interests. Everybody. If you like it, say so, if not, say why. Simple

Medocrity breeds equality? Snake, think about what you are saying. As have said countless times here, I believe there is no such thing as good art. It is an illusion. One persons mediocrity is anothers genius. Mediocrity only has meaning if you define it in very narrow terms, and this is a very bad thing to do. Is synj mediocre? I love his stuff. Would he make "the cut?" You cannot support this line of thinking if you any more than scratch the surface.

I don't see much point in participating here if all ever get is fan-boy blowjobs or abuse from others because of it. jeesh... How the hell am I supposed to control how people react to me? And really, I think I do get a lot of very useful feedback, even between the extremes.

I really, really like that there are MANY people here, and that 4500 people can act as civilly as they do guess is pretty amazing.

I do like the fact that the smaller board has a slower pace that you can actually follow and participate in. You cannot do that here, and I see no solution.

Someone pointed out that I posted some sketches on lumental and that they were *gasp* not what he expected out of almighty spooge demon. This is the kind of thing that really disappoints me. I don't want to be spooge demon. Could you maybe just judge the work and not in the context of who did it? Could I post those sketches here? I used to feel comfortable doing that. Not now. I miss that.

I am not part of "the elite of Sijun" or anywhere else. This whole line of thinking makes me nauseous. These are monikers placed by people for manipulative effect. My behavior here has not warranted this slur.

I have spent a lot of time here trying to help people, and I think that I have, to some extent. I don't appreciate what has happened. I tried to change my name (idiot, think that was going to help). As I have said before, I have mostly wanted to be left alone to do my art and to share my enthusiasm for art with others. And now I am an asshole. So be it.

[ceenda]

At the end of the day, I think most of us are just tired of this whole debate.

I for one intend to post on both forums.

[ceenda]

Further to this:-

When I came to Sijun (a year or so ago), certain things attracted me:-

A) Good art.
B) A fountain of originality.
C) Warmth and friendliness between people of ALL skills.

A pity that these have all but disappeared.

[Enayla]

Well, I had not intended to join the debate.

I will, anyway. I can understand you, Craig - it can’t be fun for someone of your reputation to post here. I can see why some people feel that Sijun is no longer the place for them... I can understand that, too. To some extent, that’s how I feel as well (not that I, in any way, belong in the same category as you - I just mean that I no longer feel quite comfortable here).

I do have a problem with the whole elitist forum idea. Not because I do not admit, on nearly all levels, that these people are my superiors - and not because I don’t admire them, and truly enjoy their art... but because, and I think others have pointed it out before me, it is a sad thing that they would separate themselves from others on the grounds that they are “better”. Maybe that was not the original intention, but the entire forum most certainly came off like that. Both in what was written in the forum, and what has been written by some of it’s members here.

But it is not my place to complain about how others chose to spend their online time. If you feel you’ll gain more from getting only criticism from those of the same skill-level, then that’s all good. Me... my perfect kind of forum is a mix of professionals and amateurs, because I think both can contribute with so much... Just it would be more heavily moderated than Sijun has been in the past, and is now. I like to think that most “art” as such, is a matter of taste rather than anything else. I don’t quite approve of the “you’re not good enough attitude”, but it’s really none of my business.

I hope you enjoy your new forum (and no, I’m not being sarcastic)... It could have been handled a bit more gracefully and politely, but done is done.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Enayla ]

[micke]

I don't give a flying f**k what people think.
It's a free world! Sijun simply made me fed up with all the flaming and useless posts and i stopped posting. When i joined Lumental i got inspired to post art again. Hey, i did'nt make any of the rules and it's got nothing to do with me. In fact i don't want to have anything to do with it at all. I just want to post my art again and learn from the constructive crits i get. No more no less. That's it.

[Jock McxSporran]

I think the reaction of the members here completely justifies the set-up at Lumental. Faustgfx is the principal reason I dont come here very often and I find it amusing that he is the one feeling the most indignation at being excluded.

I say good luck to them. They don't owe anyone anything and I can't see how it is anyone else's buisness what they choose to do with their spare time.

[spooge demon]

Enayla,

Check the dates of my posts there and here. They overlap a lot. I never intended to "leave" one for the other. What broke it for me is the castle thread. That happened well after I started posting in both places. I still would like to participate here, but only if there is still a here here.

The idea of one artist being better or worse than another could only be believed by someone very young or misinformed. Only if you define your terms, and that defeats the whole purpose of art.

I agree with you that the elitist thing is really bad. Please read what I wrote, it sounds like you missed some of it. I do NOT think I would only benefit from crits by accomplished artists. Please, oh please. People will read what you wrote and assume something about what I did or did not write!

My wish, please make it come true, O Keeper of the Keys, is, as you say, Sijun with some more moderation. That is all. I thought that was what Lumental was going to be!!

I would love to see Lumental with open registration, and moderators acting a little more than they do here.

But this is Dhab's board, run as he see's fit, and it is not my place to suggest otherwise. Same with Lumental.

I understand that it is not in your nature to kick ass. I could not do it either.

[Enayla]

Craig: I am so sorry if it came off as if I meant that you wanted only pro artists to crit your work - it was quite obvious in your post that that wasn't the case. You are wonderfully humble for someone of your skill, and I doubt you'd go to a forum just to hang out with the cool crowd. I don't think anyone else here thinks that's the case, either.

However... judging from the joining rules of that forum (changed now) and what other members of it has posted, I do think of it as an elite forum. And I does seem like several people there are more interested in getting crits from people who are really good artists, than from amateurs. I don't blame them, that's their choice.

[ceenda]

Quite frankly, the people here DO have a right to enforce stronger policing. I do not have a problem with instant bans for the fuckwits who continually ruin posts for other people.

If someone puts up a stupid post:
DELETE IT WITHOUT A TRACE

If it happens again:
BAN THE PERSON FOR A WEEK

If someone pours vitriol within another persons post:
PLACE A WARNING AND BAN MEMBERS WHO CONTINUE TO FLAME PEOPLE

I'm am so fed up of people shifting the issue here, the fact is that people have ruined Sijun by cheapening the helpful, humourous and constructive atmosphere that once prevailed here. Stronger policing, please.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: ceenda ]

[Enayla]

Ceenda: You'll have to tell that to Dhabih... It's his forum, I can't go around acting differently than he wants me to.

[ceenda]

Enayla: I'm not blaming the moderators, I understand your frustration with a number of people here. I was suggesting a method for salvaging this place. I may consider contacting Dhabih, but quite frankly, he doesn't need the hassle. It would be nice if he made a statement of some kind about this, but then, he's not asking to be dragged into a debate which isn't his fault.

BTW: That meeting I just told you about didn't go too well, I think it had an impact on my outburst. Sorry. I'm usually quite dapper, too...

[Enayla]

Okay... thanks for clearing that up. I thought I had said something wrong that had made you pissed off at me. Yes, I believe most of us think that stronger moderation would help a bit.

I'm very sorry to hear about the meeting =( I hope it works out for you.

[VengerZap]

A lot of the comments made by the Moderators at Lumental have been really outta line. Unfortunitly because members of Sijun have moved over to Lumental its has been wrongfully assumed that these people share the comments made by the moderators. Which is why people like Spooge have had some much abuse when all they wanted was a quiter place to post.

The moderators of a board do not speak for its members.

I agree with idea of Lumental, a place were experience artists can post without being swamped under by newbies like me. But the way and the personal reasons that Snake Grunger has created that forum is quite terrible. I beleive he has intended to create an Elitism enviroment, but with what he see's as elite. He's even been compared to a Nazi. Which is not hard to imagine since he has even has a Nazi like painting on his website.

Basically its unfortunite that so many Masters of Sijun have had to take so much flak because of the snobbish and arrogant comments of a few people.

Anyway, something a little more constructive.... perhaps the boards at Sijun are too broad. Finished Work, Work in Progress...etc. Few forums, many members. Perhaps posts should be sorted out more, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced with memebers only being able to post in the boards when they get good enough, but still be able to view the posts there. But we keep the Finished Gallery so artist can get comments from all skill levels.

My very first post contained a picture which I was very proud of and I really wanted too see what people thought, I didn't get a single reply, probably because its was soon buried onto another page.

[dr . bang]

Hi Spooge, i felt really guilty when you're mad. I'm really sorry if i've done anything wrong in the pass.

"I don't see much point in participating here if all ever get is fan-boy blowjobs or abuse from others because of it. jeesh... How the hell am I supposed to control how people react to me? "

You CAN control them, in most of your image post, there's just a picture and an introduction of that painting. You never tell them that you want to hear critique, feed back. So therefore, many of their resonse would be the default "thats beautiful dude".

I believe these type of response are people's natural reaction. For example if you show people on the street your painting, again, their reaction would be "thats amazing" But if you ask them "honestly, what do you see wrong in this picture", they will tell you.

Also, there's a possible why ppl say things like this to your work. They believe that you'd be happy if you see good comment.

[Joachim]

[edit] this was ment for faust's thread, but I'll post my comments here as well, I don't know which threads you guys are reading.[edit]

The funny thing after reading it all, is that it seems like I'm suppose to feel similar to if I'd cheat on my wife or something....maybe this has been blown a bit out of it's proportions ?

Though, I agree that you need to be accepted through an application form on the lumental board, is worng. Who's qualified to judge such a thing ?
But, having said that, if people would like to be so childish to say that those they once respected has showed a different side, I don't care, that's the most stupid thing I've ever heard. I for one, and I think I can speak for everyone at lumental, nobody started there because they feel they are above someone else.
Personally I've almost stopped reading sijun, because it's just too much for me. Too much threads, too much people, too much bitching, just too much of eveything. But, I felt sad that I had to stop keeping in touch with so much great people that I liked chatting with and sharing art, because I just didn't have the interest to be on this forum. So, my option was, stay on a smaller more peaceful place, or not being part of any (?) ....
In my opinion, more or less everyone writing on this thread would be more than welcome on lumental, that's not the point, they've stopped permitting members at the moment because of all the fuzz, but that will change I guess.
But, I can understand their dilemma, either it has to be to controlled, or everyone will just move from this place to their and it will all become the same as this, just with a new wrapping.

Just don't classify me or the guys hanging there as [elite] or any other stupid things like that, I've never said anything like that or pretended to be anything more than anybody else, that's your words.

To be really frank, fgfx, since you started this thread, your type of behaviour is what I have problems with. I don't mind how you act, but the type of forum you are creating.....since the only thing you've done as I've seen, is bitching and behaved rude. I've kept myself away from your posts, but you act so loudly that eventually the whole place turns into what you wants to make it. I don't blame you alone, I just don't like this type of behaviour. But instead of fighting back, I prefer to step back.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Chapel]

I hate to sound like an ass here, but there are more things in life to worry about than the ability to post in a forum.

I could really care less about this forum business, but I felt compelled to say something after seeing how it effected others. I don't think any of the members over there should be blamed or accused of anything with exception to the moderators. I feel sorry for them actually.. their membership process was poorly executed. However, with statements like "Mediocrity generates Equality." you are just asking for trouble. Ever hear the phrase "those who live in glass houses.."? ANYONE who stays for more than one post on a board has the potential to learn. To tell someone that they are not artistic enough and do not have potential is completely ignorant.

That is my last rant on the subject. I have deadlines to worry about and a relationship to salvage.. you know.. real life stuff.

[faustgfx]

joachim- tough. don't whine about something someone says about something you have done if this someone's comments are justified.

i have lost my faith in this place a long time ago, and sometimes i come bug people just for the hell of it, and other times i actually speak my mind about things that bother me, such as frost and snake grunger's behavior. got a problem with that? again- tough.

funny thing- this and dbm are the only places where i do not behave, it would be a wasted effort to try to keep my cool in a place like this. thus, fuck it.

i find it somewhat disturbing that even after i removed sijun from my bookmarks and have resisted the temptation to join the fun here, people keep telling me about shit that is said to me, shit that i don't want to left unreplied. i'm trying to get rid of this dump, you know. but no. oh well. guess i'll stay..

[Frost]

Enayla: As much as I would like for things to have changed here on sijun, I doubt they will for the reason that no one wants to take the shit of moderating and applying rules, it makes them look bad. Not to take a cheap shot at Dhabih, but people should realize that there's a reason for why he doesn't want to enforce rules here too much, and after having been at the bloody end of this continuing battle, I can say he might be doing something right for himself. The very minute someone decides that a certain thing is not tolerated, a portion of the large mass jumps to the conclusion that they think they're 'elitist' and have no right to judge, that's the crap you get from taking any sort of initiative over issues involving groups of people. I think you understand those issues well with your position here.

All I want to say is that I meant and still mean no harm to sijun, and I hope it goes on for the sake of all the people here (if only perhaps a little better somehow). I've told the members of lumental that they should feel free to post wherever they wanted, which implied that they could keep posting here if they so desired. I hope at least *THAT* was made clear.

I can talk for ages about the issues at hand, but no one is willing to understand and take the time to think over the implications of creating limited-member forum.

In any case, what's done is done. I've apologized. I've explained. I have nothing more to say.

Regards,
Frost
(apparently aka, "The elitist egostitical double-crossing double-standard self-centered nazi bastard asshole who thrives on uselessly hurting people")

PS: As for Sumaleth, yes he was invited over at Lumental, but this in no means forfeits his well-placed moderation here at sijun, as he is not part of any darker side than any of us.

[Lunatique]

What is this Castle thing craig is talking about? I want to see what could've been that pissed off the very patient and mellow Spooge.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Yeah, this is all rather stupid. I agree totally with Joachim, and I can understand how Craig feels too, although he's much more bitter about the whole thing than I am, perhaps understandably so.

I was asked if I wanted to join a new forum, I said ok. I just wanted to post some stuff, see other people's stuff... I had no plans to stop coming to Sijun, in fact I didn't, I've posted an image here and some crits and musings since then (in fact that image was posted ONLY here and not on Lumental). After this mess however... well let's just say if I do stay around here it's not thanks to a certain angry young man who started a flame thread with my name in the Subject.

Someone wrote that every member at Lumental should be ashamed of themselves.
Oh man...
Come here, you come here in person and see if you can say that to my face.
No, seriously. I'll be at Siggraph from the 10th to the 15th, holding a seminar at the Westin on Monday, please approach me at any time and voice your grievance.

If you can't say it to my face, then HOW CAN YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO PUT IT IN WRITING IN A PUBLIC FORUM?

[faustgfx]

pay for my trip to siggraph and i'll say it aloud to your face. no siggraph for me this time, as company happens to be going down in flames (it business) which isn't making me feel any happier right now.

but if you don't.. i guess i'll have to resort to using a public forum.

or are you telling me that i'm not allowed to state out my thoughts aloud/a-text here, just because they are insulting towards you or your friend?

[ceenda]

Steven: You might want to use the [ b ] and [ / b ] tags.

I USE THEM WHEN I WANT TO SOUND REALLY F**KING ANGRY: RRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAARGH TIGER!!!

[Spitfire]

wahahha "Yeaaah come heeeere and say that in my faaaaace if you daaare yaaah yaaah yaaah."

Grow the fuck up or go back to the school's playground where that kind of talk belongs. You little boys in your precious secret treehouse laughing at those below. Pathetic.

[Akolyte]

I'm going back to my artwork now, as I suggest the rest of the lot should.

[Joachim]

yawn faust

[edit] yeah spit, I agree, sorry for childish behaviour, it's too easy being dragged into this mess. No more.....I'm of to a better place

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

Spitfire just told me to die slowly in the other thread.
Hey, Spitfire - I promise not to hit you, or even answer back, if you come here and say that to me in person. I just want to record it on tape, or have a neutral witness around.

Now, you may not know this, but in REAL LIFE, if you say things like this in person to somebody, you can be sued in court. Especially here, where I happen to live right now (USA).

Now I ask you - is it courage to hit a few keys in a far off country, under a pseudonym, that spell out words that you would not dare say in person? Or is it cowardice?

I know you're going to want to say - "I would SO dare to say it in person!"
Yea, right.

Faustgfx - I didn't mean you. It was someone else who wrote all the members should be ashamed of themselves.

But if you hold the same opinion as that person and Spitfire here - how is that possible?
I didn't know about what was in that damn statement, I've never been on fucking ICQ and I have no idea who Person A is!
(Thanks for the bold suggestion Ceenda)

I saw this whole thread just a few hours ago.
What do you want me to do? Leave Lumental? Would you if our roles were reversed? I wasn't going to leave Sijun, but it's looking more and more like that decision has been taken out of my hands.

[Enayla]

Like I said, I don't mind someone else having a forum somewhere else.

I'm not going to parttake in this discussion anymore because I feel that, on most levels, it's not really any of my business.

I /do/ feel however that this thread, and the other threads, are just becoming long and outdrawn flames now. And if this goes on, I'll be closing them, and any that pop up after them.

Keep it civil people... please?

[Spitfire]

And you (all) seem all to eager to snap back at Jussi. What does that make you?

Oh, and how pathetic is it to resort to unfounded "accusations" towards Jussi's relation with the person he's defending? naa-naa-na-na-naaaah jussi and whoever, sitting in a tree... might have worked on the playground, but here it just makes you look like the kind of person that controls a wheelchair with a little chin-moved joystick.