[Chris]

Subhuman: are you stupid? did I make any reference that matrix was a good movie?!?! No.

man, it was purely an example, and yet you forced me an opinion that i loved the matrix.

I hope you don't type anymore, because i really don't wanna read anymore of your posts.

[Tiger Eaten]

Subhuman: Dead people? Really?

[Chris]

I doubt it, cause it was just a movie

[Ben Barker]

Just to clear things up here about meat being healthy or unhealthy...

Every year the vast majority of people who get sick from food get sick because of produce. It is because produce can carry bacteria just as well as meat, but most people don't cook their vegies, and they wash them poorly.
When people do get sick off of meat, they get sick really bad. It doesn't happen as often, but when it does happen people can sometimes die. So you hear about it more.

I don't mind vegetarians, but I mind anybody that tries to do anything just to be different. There are a lot of people, especially on college campuses, who have this perception of how they should act. Usually they are liberals, environmentalists, communists, and vegetarians, but not for the right reasons. They have no legitimate defense for their reasonings except what they have read or heard from others. Those people piss me off. They tend to be associated with the legitimate liberals, environmentalists, communists, and vegetarians, and the negative perception rubs off.

[Chris]

sounds like the government to me

[Affected]

Just to make my obligatory appearance in this thread, I shall speak what I know of nutrition and veganism. If you feel/know my information is incorrect, please let me know.

In addition to what B12, another thing that vegans may need to pay attention to in certain climates is vitamin D. In areas where there's plenty of sunshine all year it's not a problem, since the body can under those conditions synthesize enough of it. In places like Finland, where there are several dark months, vitamin D supplements should be taken in one form or another. (although according to what "the specialists" are saying, all Finns, regardless of diet should take vitamin D in winter.) The notable, vegan sources I know of are some forest mushrooms, margarine and, of course, vitamin D supplements. Finding a completely vegan margarine can be a bitch, since vitamin d3 is animal-based, while d2 is vegetable-based. In any case relying on margarine for D would be a bit stupid, unless you're the type that likes to eat about a pound a day.

The stereotypical vegan would probably be an anemic weakling, but in reality iron isn't a problem either. Granted, the vegan diet often contains less iron than an omnivore's, but that is generally made up for by the high amount of vitamin C in the vegan diet. C increases the absorbtion of iron - an orange a day can double the amount of iron absorbed

As for proteine, again, there is no problem. According to statistics I've seen, the average American omnivore gets about 4 times the amount of protein needed from food. You don't need as much as you'd think, and since beans, nuts and pulses are excellent sources of proteine anyway, it's definitely not something to worry about.

Calcium, no problem. dark/green vegetables are a good source, as are sesame seeds /must be ground, though, or they won't be digested.) Provided one gets enough vitamin D for the calcium to get absorbed, there should be no worries. Also, the vegetable estrogens in soy have been found to increase bone density.

That's about all the things you could conceivably worry about not getting enough of I can think of... Vitamin A is produced by the body from betacarotine, biotine is produced by bacteria in the intestines. (actually, some people can even produce b12 on their own, but I wouldn't rely on the possibility of being one of them)
Well, there's magnesium, but as far as I know, it's function in the body isn't yet completely understood (apparently it has to do with muscle tissue, though), and if it's significant, I'm told most people regardless of diet need to get more than they normally do. Anyway, that's all I can think of now. I'm highly interested in knowing more, though...

[Freddio]

I like to eat dead animal

[Myself]

or dead people

[faustgfx]

every day it disturbs me more that most of the time affected resides about 300 meters away from me (he lives down the street from my work), although i am glad that he's not been a rabbit grass eater for the whole.. fuck.. since 1992.......

[Akolyte]

Fuck this, where's my steak?

[Affected]

Jussi: disturbs you?

Well, that's good, then.

Just wait 'til july. :P

[edible snowman]

thats weird how you say you dont know any vegitarians who push their views on others. "I don't eat meat because its better for you. Do what you want.... sick bastard." I'm sure you can be healthy either way you do it. I for one, am a practical person. I'd rather be not hungry than worry about how what i was eating felt about it. The thing that most worries me about that whole stance is that a lot of people who are vegitarians for moral reasons instead of health ones are against animals testing for pharmaceuticals. that would bring medicine to a grinding halt.

[leat hacksaw]

mmmm......red meat *looks forward to next bbq*

yeah, i think eating meat i okay. its worked
for me for the 18 years ive been around.

Aboot the abbatoir/slaughterhouse thang -
while that may be cruel, i cant imagine how
else they would do it. Wait a minute - yes
I can! *imagines cows being forced to listen
to elevator muzak through gigantic headphones
until they die of boredom*


grrrr...elevator muzak.

[Dthind]

Wow, oh wow, do we have the whole gambit of opinion here.

I actually don't really like to eat anything, it tends to make me sick (I was poisoned, accidently years ago, so my stomach has problems, it was 12 oz of LYE to be specific).

If I think about eating meat, it makes me sick. Because I was a butchers assistant long ago, and I know how meat gets to you (the consumer). It is not a pretty process.

I am not a vegan (or whatever buzzword is popular to call them).

But, I know the steriods and growth hormones that are feed to cows and chickens are causing problems in people. The VERY short version of this is, Women start their period earlier now than they did 25 years ago. Secondly, Men are able to generate viable reproductive sperm at an earlier age than 25 years ago. I have read this is directly attributed to growth hormones in animals that we consume.

IMO it would be difficult to survive on a strict vegetarian diet if we did not have the protection of cities and society. I.E. under a strict evolutionary view point (in that 'thoses that are most adept at survival, will survive' (the strongest), the vegetarians, would be less able to defend themselves than protein eating carnivores, based on bulk speed and agressiveness).

This has been proven for centuries. Please keep in mind, some creatures developed wings and some changed their location in order to survive. (ps this is a bad Darwind-esque argument at best).

Ultimatley (sp), my issue with eating meat is the lack of sanitary conditions from which it is raised, slaughtered and brought to my ability to purchase.

Sooner or later the supply and demand mentality will cause hoof and mouth problems (or similar) to a very susceptable market. Then, vegatarians and their lifestyle will be embraced as viable.

Make your choice and live with it

[dead]

What I love here is that people don't just get completelly worked up about what they do or don't eat but they have a internet forum about it and withen that they have an art section about what they do or don't eat. I thought we were wierd.

[Pat]

On and almost unrelated note: I recently read in an issue of Giant Robot that vegetable porn is illegal in the US. Oddly enough, it is made in other countries but is illegal to import due to domestic agricultural laws.

It hurts my head that there is 1) such a thing as vegetable porn and 2) someone wants to buy it and 3) there's a law forbidding something I never even knew existed.

-Pat

[faustgfx]

MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS GOOD. MEAT IS YOUR FRIEND. MEAT IS GOOD.

[wayfinder_at_work]

missionaries suck.

[Dharma Bum]

Sorry if I'm late, I just got here.

About veganism.. you can argue back and forth as much as you want, but it's still just words. (Wow.. that's profound)

All you have to do is read the facts (takes a couple of hours, tops, can be found in many good vegetarian cookbooks), and away you go. After a couple of weeks you get used to what to eat/not eat and you don't have to think about it anymore. I would recommend taking it slow in the beginning, perhaps eat fish for a while before becoming a vegetarian, and quit milk when you feel ready.

I've been a vegan for five years, and I've never felt better, mentally or physically.

[MrPumpernickel]

Actually, there are many with me which have been raised on meat and doesn't care much for vegetables at all.

For instance, when I order a burger I order it witout sallad, tomatoe, etc. etc. I don't especially like boiled potatoes nor mushy carrots.

Even though that sounds like an unhelthy way of living I get by, the only thing I'm lacking (and taking supplements for) are folacine (dunno the translation, if there is any) which is in green vegetables and beans.

Let's say that all meat would be deadly for humans to eat I probably would die due to mal nurishment.

But I have absolutely nothing against vegetarians. They've made their choice and so have I.

My 0.02

[edit] spelling...

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: MrPumpernickel ]

[Dharma Bum]

Mr Pumpernickel:

I have nothing against meat-eaters as such either, most of my friends and my entire family eat meat. However, I think you need to check up on vegetarian recipes. We don't eat just boiled vegetables and potatoes.. I can't remember the last time I ate just a plain vegetable.

[MrPumpernickel]

I know I know...but I just meant that that's the kind of veggies which an human omnivore mostly eats...

I'm more of a pasta, noodle and rice man myself...

But oc course I eat vegetables, as parts of recepies...but something without milk, egg, fish or regular meat is quite uneatable...

But that's just what I think.

[Jezebel]

Mr. Pumpernickle - Hehehe... it's funny because I used to eat just like you When my parents would make dinner it would always be a huge ass slab 'o meat and maybe some canned green beans, which I would never serve myself. Usually I would grab a slice of bread to eat with my meat and skip the veggies altogether. I would eat hamburgers and hotdogs with nothing more than a slice of cheese - not even condiments. Umm... now I eat veggie burgers and veggie dogs with nothing more than a slice of cheese, hehe. It's definitely not easy to give up meat when you've been raised on eating "nothing but". Since going veg I love alllllllll sorts of new foods. I can't believe how much my tastes have changed... sorta weird. I actually eat spinach now!



beth

[Dharma Bum]

Pumper:
I agree... and chances are that if you force kids to eat/not to eat certain things, they'll rebel and do the exact opposite when they're old enough. What's more interesting/exciting than something forbidden?

Jezebel:
Yes.. Since I went veg* I eat a lot more diverse than when I ate meat. I eat things I wouldn't touch 10 years ago, and I like it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem a lot more "meat-oriented" in the US. I went to SIGGRAPH last year, and we went by car from New Orleans to New York afterwards.. I don't think I ate anything but french fries and salad for three weeks. When I asked if they had anything vegetarian at Wendy's or something like that, they just looked at me like I had something horrible growing on my face.

[Affected]

Eating meat isn't unhealthy in itself. That's what we evolved doing, after all. The thing is, though, that apparently the prehistoric man, from whom we don't really differ at all, only ate meat maybe once or twice a week. Much less often than modern people do, anyway. Nowadays, it's meat at every meal, and you only have to look at the death rates from cardiovascular diseases in western countries to see what that combined with a mainly sedentary lifestyle does to people.Our bodies are simply not fit for the kind of life we lead nowadays. Physically, we're still hunter-gatherers, not office rats. Draw whatever conclusions you will from that.

[Loki]

I call vegetarians (and macrobiotics & vegans): voluntarily malnourished

I'm ok with it - of course. But when one of those religious types comes along and accuses/attacks or tries to convince me - then they woke the sleeping lion ... pun intended.

[Loki]

Oh - holy poopie! I just checked out their forum (yes, I'm bored) and get this:
http://www.vegtalk.org/viewtopic.php?topic=15&forum=8&2

the image is ok IMHO but read the comments below - mwahaha hahahaah ahahaha

[I'm going back there right now - looks like I've got some comical minutes ahead of me)

[MrPumpernickel]

*shruggs* spinach...

And one thing more which I think doesn't aid kids eating vegetables are in like kindergarted you "HAVE TO" eat the vegetables...I mean, let the kids decide that for themselves, the chance that they'll like veggies later in life is MUCH MUCH higher that way...anything which is forced upon someone can't aspire to anything but the opposite feeling about whatever it is which is forced (did that make sense)...

[worthless_meat_sack]

Hmmm... cool. Never been over here before...

Nice drapes... love the couch…

With this nick I just had to jump in.

Question- what is the difference between killing a plant and killing an animal? I can see the efficiency argument: The lower on the food chain you go, the fewer resources required to produce a given amount of food. But that only becomes a concern if there are population issues, which there are.

But I don't see the moral difference between farming/killing animals and plants.

I suppose the obvious is the suffering and pain issue, but 1) because a factory full of condemned bean sprouts don’t scream can we assume they feel no pain and 2) animals can be raised and killed humanely, I think the waters a still muddy.

I think it is true that if animals were treated better, some vegetarians might eat some meat. There are as many reasons to be vegetarian as there are vegetarians.

And I think the emotional one, “I can’t stand to think of the fuzzy cute animals getting axed” is a pretty compelling argument. Works for me.

So I guess I can go along with a lot of reasons to be V, but the immorality of eating meat as opposed to plants escapes me.

[dr . bang]

Why do we think eating cow is ok while eating dog is disgusting?

Whether its veggies or meat, i always think about its relationship with human. The stronger a relationship is, the more we're dislike to eat them.


to meatsack: really glad to see you back, i hope you feel better about the whole crap that happened. It seem like you've been werking too much, I think you deserve a long vacation to Hawaii or somethin.


.

[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: dr . bang ]