[Teaweed]

I did this one by building the scene in DromED (level editor for Thief and other Dark engine games), then taking a screenshot and painting over it Photoshop (using the paintbrush, eyedropper and smudge tool). Whilst I'm quite happy with how it turned out, and I *did* arrange the composition, I can't help but think I'm cheating.

Oh, and it's a mysterious shade lurking on a street corner. Spooky.

[Shiro_tengu]

You built the level - you textured the level
you painted over it

THERE IS NO CHEATING HERE

and its very nice too.
You simply used a different technique or perhaps a different set of tools. An artist painting with a brush cant feel he cheated because he used the brush - or the paint.

[Teaweed]

That's what I keep telling myself, it just seems too easy though.

Hmm..maybe I'm to something...

[Jezebel]

Teaweed - Here's a little secret... TONS of artists use this method when creating illustrations/matte paintings and such. It's much quicker that pulling out all your perspective materials, and it has less of a possibility for error. It is all your work, so no... it's not cheating. Just like if I want to go take a picture of a donkey and put a picture of my cat's head onto it, it may look stupid but it's still all my work and I can do it however I please

[Vesuvius]

teaweed- do I know you from TTLG?

[Anthony]

Yeah, no problem with it. I would recommend just taking a unlit/untextured screen cap, because the 3d tends to control your painting too much. I like to build the structure, pose it, and take a screen grab, and in PS/Painter just draw some red guidlines over important areas of the grab, then discard the grab. That way it doesn't control me, but I have a goot perspective reference.

[jcterminal]

cheating? ha. as long as you're not using someone else's art without permission, it's not cheating.

reference photos? not cheating.

tracing your own art? not cheating.

overpaints? not cheating.

what you did? not cheating.

not only that, but what you did is a damn fine idea, i'm gonna go try it.

[LeChuck]

I dont see how that could be cheating. Sounds like a great way to get the perspective dead on.

[Death Dealer]

I don't think its cheating, for example Crage Mullens paints over photos all the time and his stuff kicks ass.

[cybertoker2001]

Craig Mullins also does the same thing you've done here. He builds things in a 3D and then paints over them quite often and I think we'd all agree that his stuff "kicks ass".

Good work here bro, I'm always trying to find ways to work faster.

I see no cheating here. While you could have painted the whole thing freehand from the get go, the final effect would have probably been very similar and would have done nothing more than take a longer amount of time to complete. =/

(Damn, I wish I had some 3D software. =/ )


Take it easy,
CT2001

[Teaweed]

Right then, so how about some comments about the art then?

Oh, Teaweed+TTLG = Tumbleweed

[EviLToYLeT]

Cheating....nah. The only person your cheating is yourself; cheating yourself out of learning why the shadows are here...why they are not there. etc.

[[666]Flat]

CHEATER!!!!1 YUO SIR ARE WORSE THAN cREamY 4ImB0t FAG0Ts

(I don't think so.)

[Siftland]

Hey Teaweed! Cool to see you here.

Anyway, I think the piece has nice color and the composition reads fairly well...BUT you went way way WAY overboard with the smudge (or smear if you're a Corel guy, like me) tool. Actually it looks like you used it almost exclusively. Essentially, you just "pushed around" the colors, as opposed to introducing some hues, values, or textures of your own. Overall, I'd say you are relying too much on the screenshot.

Also. The figure barely reads at all. It's just a vaguely human-shaped black lump over a black portal: not well-defined or easy to see.

But it is a good experiment.

[ October 06, 2001: Message edited by: Siftland ]

[Cicinimo]

Although the smudge gives it a painted look, I'll agree with Siftland in that it looks generally over-used. On the other hand, I really like the way you chose to light it. And no, of course thats not cheating :P

[geoman2k]

yes, it is cheating. what you're doing is taking the easy way out, skipping the really hard part. you're doing your math with a calculator.

mullins does paint over 3d renderings/photos. but he doesn't do this to cover up weaknesses in perspective/lighting- he has allready proven he can do those easily. the reason he uses 3d renderings for his matte paintings is because matte paintings need to be photo-realistic. photo real means not only detail and complex textures, but also perfect perspective and lighting. craig could have done those paintings with no 3d renderings, but that leaves the chance for one of his guidelines to be wrong, skewing the perspective and thus ruining a painting that has taken weeks/months to do.

i don't want to insult your artistic skils at all, thats not what i'm posting for. i'm posting because i think that the people who say you aren't cheating are misleading you.
perspective is probably the hardest part of art- but also one of the most important parts. you can go ahead and continue to use this crutch on your paintings, but as long as you do you won't be able to advance as an artist, you'll allways have that crutch to lean on. learning perspective sucks, i mean it really, really, really sucks... but once you've learned it you'll be a better artist than ever before.


keep working on it. don't use the smudge tool so much either

[Jezebel]

Geo - I think you made some excellent points and they are all valid. But I think your statements go more into the "am I cheating myself?" and not the "is this cheating?" category.

The impression I got was that he was curious as to whether or not it's appropriate as an artist to use a tool in that way, or is it considered a "rip" or something similar. Well in that sense, no... it's not. It can't be cheating for Teaweed and not cheating for Spooge. Just like you can't say that using a photo reference is "cheating".

But yes... he is indeed cheating himself and I firmly believe that an artist shouldn't totally really on such methods to do good art. Learning proper perspective is an important skill for almost any artist to have.

[Teaweed]

Jezebel, I was thinking the same thing myself. I don't want to become too dependant on it, I need to be able to create the image on my own. I'm currently about halfway through another one (no smudge this time ), but I don't think I'll do anymore in this manner. Frankly, although I like the finished effect, it's pretty boring to do. I might still use the screenshots as reference though and paint the image independantly.

PS: I painted it by getting colour samples and then painting with the airbrush. I didn't just smudge directly over the screenshot (that would defeat the purpose), although I did smudge the colours around a bit. It was an experiment, after all.

[ October 06, 2001: Message edited by: Teaweed ]

[geoman2k]

jez, you hit the nail on the head... its not cheating like painting over a photograph is... but in what you're doing the only person you're cheating is yourself, by not allowing yourself to learn somehting important like perspective.

i'm not saying theres anything wrong with painting over a 3d render... just that you won't learn anyhting from it and will probably end up hurting your art skills in the long run

[cybertoker2001]

I'm going to have to say that I really do belive you're cheating yourself.
But the question you asked is.."Is this cheating?" and in the art world I wouldn't concider this cheating.

But as stated before me, you ARE cheating yourself out of some very needed knowledge in the areas of perspective, lighting, etc.

A suggestion- Try using the screen shot strictly for referance purposes, instead of painting directly over the screen shot it's self.

Take it easy,
CT2001


[Edit:] I just read in your post that you'd be using the screen shots strickly for ref. =/ (I need to read all the post better next time.)

[ October 06, 2001: Message edited by: cybertoker2001 ]

[Shaded]

Sup Weedy. Nice to see another familiar face around here.