[Jin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Torstein Nordstrand:

Must be frustrating having so much knowledge, and all of us walking around with blinds, mumbling irritated about Painter's shortcomings.

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No, I really do enjoy helping people get over the first hurdles using Painter. I know how much fun they're going to have once that part is over and how everlastingly entertaining Painter can be. (Sometimes everlastingly confounding, too!)

There's tons I don't know about painting, color, shadows, all kinds of things related to creating art.

Even after using Painter for so many years, there are still things that surprise me all the time.

I never will, probably, be good with color management or know everything about setting Painter up in all of the various system configurations (no one does, but some know a lot more than I do!). Color management is a whole other complex subject and too much for me to learn so far. (I'll admit I haven't tried much. It's like my car.. I want it to run but don't want to repair it!)

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I shouldn't just rely on you for tips and lengthy reports, I should investigate myself.

I think it's good to "investigate" on our own.. a lot.. then when we get stuck, ask questions. The pay off is that a lot of neat things are discovered along the way.. and we get used to finding things and figuring things out faster. There's not always someone handy to ask, after all. Personally, I can't stand being stuck and waiting for some good soul to answer my questions so while I ask them.. I keep poking around and often find the answer myself.

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I tried the RGB-palette, but unfortunately found it equally bothersome. I might have to tinker some more with it though, it just forces me to think yet another way about colour mixing values.

It is bothersome and Painter needs a better way of picking RGB colors accurately.. that's for sure!

[Jin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Malachi Maloney:
Thanks for the info, Jin.

Yea, I assumed that the newer versions of Painter obviously have more options, not to mention the use of layers and such.
I guess it's mostly that color wheel. Every time I see it, I think PainterClassic.


~M~

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Malachi,

Painter Classic never was, nor is it now, one of the series of full Painter versions. Though it was based on Painter 5, even Painter 4 had way more functionality.

It's just an abbreviated appetizer to get people interested in full Painter versions and for what it is, I think it's a great little program.

[Jin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Lunatique:
Ooh, with the B and V, I can close one more window! Thanks, Jin!

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Lunatique (I keep wanting to call you, affectionately, Loony.. er.. Luny)

Here's a little present, 'specially for you (but it's good for everyone). Print it and stick it next to your monitor 'til you have 'em all down pat:

In all versions 5, 5.5, 6, and 7 (unless noted for a specific version), to access the Tools, click the following keys that are listed as the Tools icons appear in the Tools palette beginning in the top row and reading from left to right:

M = Magnifier
G = Grabber
E = Rotate Page (hidden below the Grabber tool)
C = Crop
L = Lasso
W = Magic Wand
P = Pen
Q = Quick Curve (hidden below the Pen tool)
I = Rectangular Shape
J = Oval Shape (hidden below the Rectangular Shape tool)
B = Brush (Freehand)
V = Brush (Straight Lines)
K = Paint Bucket
D = Dropper
R = Rectangular Selection
O = Oval Selection (hidden below the Rectangular Selection tool)
F = Layer Adjuster (Painter 6 and 7)
F = Floater Adjuster (Painter 5.5 and earlier)
S = Selection Adjuster (hidden below the Layer Adjuster tool)
H = Shape Selection (hidden below the Layer Adjuster tool)
T = Text
Z = Scissors
A = Add Point (hidden below the Scissors tool)
X = Remove Point (hidden below the Scissors tool)
Y = Convert Point (hidden below the Scissors tool)

Some of the keystroke commands in Painter 7 are different from earlier versions. There's a Visual Guide for Keystroke Shortcuts written by Painter Developer John Derry that you can download from my site at (see the Visual Guides for Water Colors and Liquid Ink too):
http://www.pixelalley.com/tutorials/jderry-guide-pdf-downloads.html

One example of the differences in keystroke commands:

Painter 5, 5.5, and 6: Hold down the Ctrl/Command+Alt/Option keys, then drag to resize your brush dab.

Painter 7: Hold down the Ctrl/Command+Shift+Alt/Option keys, then drag to resize your brush dab

There's also a basic tutorial for using the Tools palette at PixelAlley that might help newcomers to Painter (version 5, 5.5, 6, and 7):
http://www.pixelalley.com/tutorials/painter5toolpalette.html

.. and another one that gives the letter commands to activate the tools, and it might be easier to learn than the list above because it includes screen prints:
http://www.pixelalley.com/tutorials/tools_palette_letter_keys.html

[-HoodZ-]

wow thnx jin...all i knew a B and D..brush and dropper

[Lunatique]

Hehe Jin, you can call me anything you want. Being such a classy lady, I doubt you'd come up with a raunchy enough term of endearment that'll embarrass me.

I'll make sure I memorize most of these shortcuts.

Thanks a bunch!

[inshield]

Hi guys, I share all your passion for painter , I love it! its just a great way to emulate traditional media and its capabilities have no limits.
I-m new at it and I wonder if any of you could help me to figure out what kind of brush is used in these illustrations, all the illustrations are from (Korean artist Hyung tae-kim), it seems to be one with hard edges, and bleed turned off. I think it is similar to watercolor/simple water in P6 or oil pastels with hard edges, but I-m not sure. Heh maybe you could give a hand and try guessing if you have the time.
Thank you very much!
here are the samples:
ilust 1
illust 2
ilust 3

[URL=http://www.waylon-art.com/hyung/hyung/softmax1-big.jpg ]ilust 4[/URL]

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: inshield ]

[-HoodZ-]

i have a questiong on the first illustration...how do you make something glow on painter? something like the dodge effect on PS

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: -HoodZ- ]

[damppuppy]

Painter has been my first paint program since high school. I've used painter 3d and now use painter 6. I've barely used photoshop. But I have to say from all the time that I have used Painter, I've grown to hate it. Not to say that it's a bad program. All the brushes, paper, and other features are nifty, especially the watercolor. But Painter doesn't really fit my style of painting and coloring. I find that root of of this problem, come from the fact that Painter's layers suck. In Painter each brush stroke can't have it's own composite method, like PhotoShop does. To do that you'd have to create a layer for each brush stroke(a real pain). Because Photoshop allows each brushstoke to have it own composite method, a picture can look like it's made up of multiple layers, when in fact everything is painted on one layer. The only way I've ever managed to create that effect on painter was to modulate the brushes opacity constantly, but that doesn't really work when you want to put an overly stroke on top of a multiply stroke over a darken stroke.

Of course you might ask, why don't I just switch over to Photoshop? .... Cause I can't afford it right now. :_(

Please tell me if this is the case for other Painter users.

[Jin]

inshield,

It looks like those pieces could be done with any fairly simple brush, like the Painter 7 Tinting's Basic Round, for instance.

(The Tinting category of brush variants was created by Painter Developer John Derry and introduced with the Painter 7 Update (patch) to appease those of us who were very unhappy to have lost the earlier version Water Color brushes.. the simpler ones. The Tinting variants still don't do what Painter's old Water Colors did but they come a lot closer than anything we've been able to do with the Painter 7 Water Color technology.. all new and different.)

It also looks like the color was built up layer by layer which you could do with the Tinting's Basic Round, varying color and brush size since it covers existing paint.

It doesn't look like the artist did much blending, but you could do that if you wanted using the Tinting's Blender variant or the Liquid's Just Add Water.

As to black line work on a white background, that can be placed on a Layer above the Canvas with the Layer set to Composite Method Gel, then the painting done either on a Layer below the linework or on the Canvas, or on both the Canvas and several Layers below the line work if you want to build up areas of color with some degree of "safety". That way, if you mess up one Layer, you can delete it and start again without damaging other Layers you like.

HoodZ,

In this case, I think the "glow" was just painted on using lighter colors over darker ones.

Or, you can use the Painter 7 F-X's Glow variant.

I find that the Glow variant is pretty fierce so try applying it on a new Layer above the artwork and in the Objects palette's Layers section, check the Pick Up Underlying Color box. You can then adjust the Glow Layer's Opacity and experiment with Composite Methods. Maybe even add a duplicate Glow Layer and try different combinations of Composite Methods 'til you have just the right glow effect. This way, your artwork remains intact while you experiment.

There are probably a zillion ways to add a glow effect so keep exploring and when you find a neat one, let everyone know how you did it.

Have fun!

[damppuppy]

-- inshield. Looking at those awesome illustrations, it seems that he used maybe a very transparent graduated, or cover brush on a separate layer.

-- Hoodz. I found the best way to make things glow on Painter is to use a colored airbrush or graduated brush on a screen layer. Then use a white colored brush where you really want it to be bright.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: damppuppy ]

[Jin]

You're welcome, guys!

Using those letter keys, and since I have the F keys programmed to open the palettes, I can have everything closed and open/close palettes or activate tools with a single keystroke.

In Edit > Preferences > Function Keys, you can program either F keys or F+Shift keys to perform any menu command.

In my case, F1 through F7 are programmed to correspond with the Ctrl/Command keys and numbers you'll find in the Window menu to Show/Hide each of the palettes. Using the F keys and/or Ctrl/Command+H to show or hide all palettes at once, makes it very easy to do all of these keystrokes with my left hand without losing track of where I am with the pen in my right hand.

[inshield]

Jin:
Thank you man, I find your advice very useful,Where can I get that tool you are talking about?.
Looks like you're a painter guru or something, too much knowledge!

damppuppy:
Thank you, it might be a possibility, I'll try it too.

[-HoodZ-]

well i gave painter another go and im quite happy with the result...i used PS as well



my scanners on the fritz so i cant scan any of my work for awhile

on the upside i am liking Painter more and more...thnx Jin

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: -HoodZ- ]

[merlyns]

I work with painter 7 becuz I can't work with photoshop but I just love the programme and the brushengine roks

just needed to say that.

-david

[Rinaldo]

Hey Jin
I noticed your "Comments, Laments, and Bug Reports" thread over at critical depth. and I have a few things that might be of use. I would post all this over there but I don't have an account
on the issue that gekitsu raised right at the end but doesn't seem to have replied back about yet, I'd have to agree in whole. the problem of not having a brush like the regular photoshop brush is a big thing for a lot of people. I have tried to get past this problem for a while but I think it is more than simply "it's different and thus bad".

over in this thead at conceptart.org www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50&pagenumber=1 ceenda (who is welcome to sue for copyright at this point in time:P) gave a good example of what I feel the problem is. (I think you already understand this, but just in case)

quote:

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"If Painter had a directly additive brush like Photoshop, then I would be strongly tempted to go back to Painter.

What do I mean by directly additive?

When you draw a line with a brush, curve round and go over that line again in one stroke, Painter adds up all the colours.

Photoshop, I presume, works on a "greater than or equal" method where, unless you press harder on the stylus, you WON'T overwrite the line you've allready done in one stroke.

This is why I use photoshop on alot of Painter work... the functionality of the Photoshop brush is amazing for detailed work."

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(I'll host this image myself if it's a problem ceenda)

it seems that pretty much all painter brushes act something like a multiply blending mode (even the non "buildup" ones)...if you pick a colour and want to do a wash or something simmilar, it will keep adding the colour ontop of itself (in the same stroke) even if you are pressing on the wacom with the same pressure.
there are ways around this if you want to get a particular effect..and painter forces you to be a bit more decisive in your strokes...pick the right colour and do it in one go...as opposed to letting your pressure dictate a lot of the colour properties. however, considering the huge number of options in the control tab I don't understand how there is this huge limmitation.
for me it especialy comes out when I try to create a pencil type brush for drawing. pencils need to have a full value range pretty much. I want to be able to press lightly and get a nice light stroke, but be able to go really dark if I want too.
I cannot get something like this to work in painter. and strokes that go over each other look aweful. it is not like traditional mediums at all.

the other problem that I simply cannot get past, is the absence of a "new window" command as in Photoshop.
for a lot of people this is not a problem cos they don't know about it, but when you are working digitaly a big issue is getting boged down in details. you need to be able to see the whole image. percieve it as a whole composition. but at the same time you need to zoom up to put in the details.
this is the same for traditional art, yet it comes naturaly 'cos you can step back and move around etc. but it is always a big issue in any art class. "look at it as a whole". "don't get boged down in the details" etc.
this is a pretty standard setup for me in photoshop

[this is a bad example cos it was actuialy coloured in painter...and it's just scribbles with not real composition, but anyway]

I can see 3 versions of my image. 2 of which I can work on. all update in real time. the one in the top right is the navigation tab. the other 2 are different windows of the same file. I can have them at different zoom levels. normaly one at 100% or "actuial pixels" the other zoomed up for details/looser strokes.
is there any way to get the navigation view visisble at all times in painter? I haven't been able to find one as of yet. and there is no way of having 2 seperate windows of the same file at the same time which update in realtime.
add to this the very silly zoom functionality and you have a big problem. if the zoom worked like PS things might be workable...I think it goes up in set ammounts, not a percentage like painter.
this problem will most likely be diminished the bigger your monitor is I might add.

to elaborate on the zoom....the shortcut is M (a long way from where your hands normaly are when painting), and you cannot access the right click menu for zoom when using the space+ctrl and\or alt shortcuts when in other tool modes. which means you cannot get to "actuial pixels"....you need this because a lot of the time when trying ot zoom instead of clicking you actuialy click and drag (wacom is pretty bad for this and it seems to happen a lot in painter) which draws a zoom box..thus zooming you right up to 6000%...if you try and just zoom out a bunch of times you never get to one of the "paintable" zoom levels...50%/100% etc, it is always 104% or something stupid due to the percentage zooming. which gives you that interpolated unreliable image.
so if you can't see your image small and big at the same time, you have to zoom a lot, which is a pain, esp considering the shortcomings of it's implementation.

does that makes any sense? if not I'll try my best to clear it up. I would really love to use painter. but these for me are the deal breakers. although I seem to find some uses for it in collaboration with Photoshop

the pressure sensitivity seems to be very strange to me as well. but it is most likely a comfort issue. it just seems to jump somewhere in the middle, I press lightly and there is minimal change...then it all of a sudden goes as dark as it can. then not much change as I press harder still. I have messed around with both the brush tracking in the actuial app and the tip feel controls in the wacom control panel, plus a healthy combination of the two and it still seems to exhibit the same problem no matter what I do. How do I get a very linear transition? what am I doing wrong? I have heard a few people say the same thing so I know it's not just me.
again it's not really a "bad" thing. it works well for some kinda of painting...forcing you to think more in terms of strokes instead of washes. but I want to choose.

you seem to know a lot of about the program so I'd be interested to hear any thoughts you have on this, although I have tried to find workarounds with no result so far.

do you know if the normal photoshop brush issue has been sent to procreate in a form they are likely to take note of? I feel it is one of hte big shortcomings of the application at this point in time.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Rinaldo ]

[Jin]

quote:

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Originally posted by inshield:
Jin:
Thank you man, I find your advice very useful,Where can I get that tool you are talking about?.
Looks like you're a painter guru or something, too much knowledge!

damppuppy:
Thank you, it might be a possibility, I'll try it too.

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inshield,

If, by "that tool" you mean the Painter 7 Tinting's Basic Round and Blender, take a look in the Brushes palette (Ctrl/Command+2 to toggle it open and closed).

In the brush category list, choose Tinting. Then in the brush variant list, choose Basic Round or Blender when you want to blend.

For the Liquid's Just Add Water variant (also for blending), choose Liquid from the brush category list and Just Add Water from the brush variant list.

The other suggestion sounds like a good one too. Try both!

[Jin]

Rinaldo,

I know a lot about Painter (not everything!) but don't know how to solve some of its limitations and bugs. Workarounds sometimes help. Other times, we just have to choke down the difficulties if we want to use Painter.

Everything you mention is true and a problem for lots of Painter users. The Painter 7 Zoom feature was supposed to be an improvement, an in some ways it is. In others it's a royal pain in the derriere! That sudden jump to 10,000 thing still happens to me occasionally, even after installing the Painter 7 Update (patch), for instance. There's also the problem of jagged edges when zooming out. Not a pretty thing when you're trying to create an image.

Some not ideal but at least workable suggestions:

For a little more control with zooming, try moving the Scale slider. For accurate Zoom increments, try typing the number in the little box to the right of the Scale slider (in the lower left corner of the image window).

For a quick overview of my whole image, I set up a Custom Palette with three menu command buttons in it: Clone, Zoom to Fit, and Close. It's not real time viewing, but it's quick.

Also in the lower left corner of the image window you can click the third icon from the left to open a small overview of your image. If you're zoomed way in, you'll see a red rectangle describing the area of the image currently displayed in the image window. Then you can click and drag the rectangle to navigate to another location in the image while still zoomed in. To close the small overview, click somewhere in the image.

Between the Clone/Zoom to Fit/Close (three clicks) and small overview window (two clicks to open and close) you'll at least be able to see your entire image at two sizes, and without too much hassle. Yes, what you have in Photoshop is great, and it would be nice if Painter had those views available too, and in real time.

I read the tail end messages posted by gekitsu and me in the Painter Comments, Laments, and Bug Reports thread in the Painter Can forum at IDD tonight (this morning!??) just to refresh my memory, then spent a few minutes playing around with brushes in Painter 7. Here's what I came up with that, for me, seems to both cover when the brush stroke overlaps itself and also responds to pressure with change in opacity. Try the brush and see what you think (it was based on the Brush's Opaque Round as the source variant):


http://www.pixelalley.com/sijun-forum/Jins_overlap_and_fade.xml

You may need to experiment with Brush Tracking. When I painted these little demo strokes, I'd just reset Brush Tracking using pretty hard pressure. It varies from person to person and from system to system it seems, so you'll need to see what works best for you. You may not need to reset Brush Tracking at all.. try without doing that first.

I don't know if gekitsu ever sent his comments to Tanya Staples, but she is aware of that thread in the Painter Can forum. You can send your comments to her as well. (She's the Corel Painter Program Manager). Here e-mail address is:

[email protected]