[Reid]

I disagree with the waiting period or reply status for new members to be able to post�new members don�t always equate to new artists.

[merlyns]

this thread scares me allitle you know I like this board very much one of the reasons that I like sijun is the simplicity of the system If the boards gonna change I sugjest *bad english comes in here* keep the system simpel you all know deviant art well thats a example of a to comlicatet system so please keep the board simple.

I like the rules two you got my vote.

and agian this scares me is my favorite board changing drasticly

I just wanna say that I'll always keep posting here.

PS FOR SUMALETH
SENDED YOU A PRIVATE MESSAGE (I DONT WANT TO CLUTTER THIS TREAD WITH MY COMMENTS

-david

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: merlyns ]

[[666]Flat]

Post only quality art, bla bla bla... You know what, quality is relative and even the best of you are just "ok" compared to the crazy fellaz that made the "Final Fantasy" Movie et al, not to mention the classical masters of fine art. If the style of the poster doesn't appeal to you, it ain't no quality art -> some kinda self-righteous art sheriff hitting the instant delete button. Gettin' us back to the question: how do you define art? And who the fuck are you to say if it's "quality" art? Because it looks so realistic or shit? Grab a digi cam, get ouside, got your "super high quality art" right away. Talking about efficiency, baby. Art is multifarious, period. Some of your pussy rants sound like you want a forum for wannabe-artsuperstars sucking each others cock, I imagine some kinda hen party, everybody sitting altogether and then one goes like "Oooh darling, look what I did today, ain't that eye appealing" and than the ho on the other side of the table goes like "Well I dig the use of colors, but I think you should focus a little bit more on the hairy ass of your gay mannequin", blabla etc. pp.. You guys forgot diversity and creativiy is what makes art fascinating, not the ability to paint some fucking photo motive. I bet abstract and modern art would get banned too in the process. Wheeeeee, back to the era of realism which ended, uhm, dunno, with the invention of photography maybe? And what about that critique shit. So we are encouraged not to say anything if it ain't "constructive" ( a distensible notion too, btw). Maybe you're just too far with your head up your ass so you don't realize that doing art is an form of expressing yourself and every reply to that expression will be gladly absorbed by any artist, no matter how much he pretends that he "feels kind of disturbed by infertile comments like 'I love your pic' " because he "wants to see comments that get him to somewhere"... If you're one of that fucking fools, think about it - you'd stop doing your shit if you'd get only two or three replies a month that read "I would check this and this area. And this and that is wrong too. So long"... If you're doing it by heart and not just one 'I'm 2 kool 4 skool' shitfucker, you will appreciate the "non constructive" comments as well.

A lot of guys around seem to be dishonest to themselves and want to establish their "own little place" by tightening up some fucking rules only some nerdish freak could enjoy, I guess because they think they could get the attention "they deserve" in their opinion. If this becomes the above mentioned "Hey-I'm-going-to-the-ILM-Studio-and-tell-em-I-own-their-ass-because-I-do-and-you-gotta-second-me-on-that" gang cock sucking hen party I'm gone fo' sure.

[ceenda]

My goodness!!!

Grammar!

Sentences that start with capitals!

Punctuation!

Successful use of quotes!

Literary expression seperated into paragraphs!

Good comment.

[S4Sb]

it becomes quality art if you put some work in it, flat. What you develop from your time is your choice. They just say that you should have dealt with the matter, before you post

[Lunatique]

As much as I liked flat's "in you face" post, and as much as I agree with many of his points, I would have to say that those arguments would've meant a lot more if sijun was the ONLY art forum around.

But, as we've all seen, there are LOTS of art forums around these days, and the people that might be pissed off because of the new rules can visit the other art forums.

flat- you have to realize, sijun has always been about diversity and tolerance. But lack of a stricter structure has proven to NOT WORK. It' time to try something else.

If changing the rules could get some of the pros and advanced artists to come back, and have this place be the way it was with all the interaction, instructions, sharing...etc, then you know what, I really don't care if some 13 yr-old's drawings won't get seen at sijun. Like I said, they have plenty of other forums to go to.

And realism is not some kind of a collective goal of the artists here. There are plenty of kickass comic book artists, anime styled artists..etc that post at sijun. You are generalizing way too much there.

And while it's true that everyone loves compliments, it is also true that some of the serious artists here really DO prefer to get some constructive criticism, ESPECIALLY a WIP piece they are struggling with. I know that I love getting crits, and I actually copy all of them down and put them in a word file so when I go back to work on the piece, I could read the crits again and jump in with some new goals.

You generalized based on your personal view and your current artistic level, and while your arguments are valid, majority of sijun don't share your disposition on many things.

But regardless, you did make some good points.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[Sumaleth]

Flat:

>If this becomes the above mentioned "Hey-I'm-going-to-the-ILM-Studio-and-tell-em-I-
>own-their-ass-because-I-do-and-you-gotta-second-me-on-that" gang cock sucking hen
>party I'm gone fo' sure.

If that was a threat you're probably taking the wrong tact.

But seriously, there's nothing you said there that everyone isn't aware of - if perhaps not so passionately.

Truth is that there's perhaps 3 people of the ~7500 members with the same "edge" sensibilities as you so if it come to a democratic collection of opinions I suspect most members would prefer to get the forum back to being about "good digital art" which is where it started and what so many people are refering to as the "good old days".

Verses keeping it as it is. And since you didn't offer any other ideas or solutions I assume you'd prefer it stay as it is. I respect your opinion.

But I'm actually -really- surprised how passionate you are on this subject. You've been posting off-topic stuff here for the best part of a year now, annoying a lot of people and generally dragging the tone of the forum down so I always assumed that it was more of a game for you. See what you can get away with before being banned, that sort of thing.

(I dont mean to be attacking, just pointing out my thoughts)

[oDD]

When we talk about deleting posts, we are talking abouut art that:

- is a ripof
- paintover
- 3 minuts photomanipulation
- 5 minuts shity drawing/ painting

If you can see that an artist puted alot of work and time in his pic, his post won't be deleted.

And Flat i don't got nothing agains't making from this forum my own little place. If you don't like the new rules and you are planning to stop shitting here 2 times a day, well i don't give a f**k !

about members list, it's a default feature of phpbb (witch is completly FREE). I bet there will be other cool stuff that people will like.

i think in the main rules we could give a links to other major boards as some people find this place and want to post their stuff because they don't know about other boards. And their stuff suits other boards better. So manga artist would go to polycarbon , cartoon artis to that other board and so on... I think that would make board clearer

And about rules , if you want people to read them you have to make them as short as possible. Like

You can get banned if:
- blah blah
- blah blah
- blah blah

If you want to Post:
- blah blah
- blah blah
- blah blah

Maybe it's possible to make the "i read the rules" button activate after 30 second. That would be pretty efective as people waiting for this button to be clickable they would read the rules as they got nothing else to do.

About the 2 weeks period befor posting. I still think it's a good idea. So of 20 new members one grat artist will have to wait for two weeks. So what. That period makes the banning more painfull as for egzample a rip off artist wouldn't have chance to flood us with his shitty artwork.

Sorry for my english, I can't write good in polish either :P

[Lunatique]

Hmm, I would have to disagree with the 2 week waiting period. We could lose a potential great member with that rule.

Picture this: a kickass professional artist needed a break, so he surfed the web a bit to relax, and came upon this forum. He's intrigued by it, and wanted to post some stuff, but nope, he's gotta wait 2 weeks. Well, in 2 weeks, he's already forgotten all about this place, as he would've had 2 weeks' worth of deadlines to stress over.

But, had he been able to post due to his spur-of-the-moment interest, he would most likely remember to come back to read the replies, and would very likely keep on visiting and become a regular member.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[ceenda]

quote:

---

Well, in 2 weeks, he's already forgotten all about this place, as he would've had 2 weeks' worth of deadlines to stress over.

---

Build the suspense.

Why not send an email after the first week with the title "Sijun Notice: One week to go!!!".

[Sumaleth]

I'm not a big fan of the 2-week wait either.

Been wondering about a "no-rules forum". Well, it would still be restricted to art-related posts, but in that forum there would be no other requirements.

Would it be used? I realize it's just another name for a beginners forum, but calling it a no-rules forum might remove the stigma.

[edraket]

I think a no rules forum would become a place to dump shit.
It might be fun. But the more different forums we have the more of the good stuff will slip through my attention.
But thats just me I guess.

[oDD]

begginers forum ? what for ? this forum shoul hold some quality. This is the most important thing. If that mean i can't post my pictures here because my art is too crappy , i'm still with it. I just hope one day i will have enough skill to be c&c by other people here on this forum. I just don't bulive that people will actually be visting those "not so good art" sections. So there should be only one finished work section.

[akrute]

yes yes good ideas.. im realli proud with how this forums coming together haha.. oh well.. yeah.. im up for the new faq good idea`` i dont realli like the two week waiting period.. like somebody pointed out people would just forget about it.. im not too sure how effective this FAQ would realli turn out though hmph..
its nice to see people with low # coming back to post in this thread.. it alreadi feels like sijuns returning to its old stage

[eyewoo]

Agree with flat... wouldn't have said it quite that way, but the basic attitude is the same. Diversity - the good, the bad and the ugly all rolled up in one package makes for an interesting place...

Two week waiting period...??? Take your pick...

a. insane
b. desperate
c. paranoid
d. utterly regressive

[StrangeFate]

Flat, what you so eloquently described is exactly what noone wants (i can't say i read all your blurb but you need to learn to break down stuff into more paragraphs that meas it more confortable to read).

Raising the quality a bit wouldn't end up with suck ups and artists complimenting eachother, that's what happens now.
Post an image and you got 20 newbies posting 'wow', 'you rule' etctec.

Limiting newbiness a bit would _maybe_ help limit that sort of comments, having less people drooling and more people being able to give serious crit.

If i want 'wow's, people sucking up and a general ego boost i'll post at other forums, but here, i'd expect more than that.
A wise comment from a good artist is worth more than 20 wows.

I'm sure Flatty that's the reason you're here too, to get advice, not to pimp your site in the sig and feeling like a l33t teenie superstar when 13 years olds like your stuff. I mean, that would be damn pathetic.

[Lolion]

Eyes... bleeding...
Okay, I just read through this entire thread. Took the better part of an hour, but I did it.

So, anyway, from what I've read about the proposed rules and so forth, I must say that I agree completely.
What's that?
Yes I am aware that that would probably deprive me of my posting priviledges, but I could still hang out, right?
I mean, I still visit goodbrush regularily just to get that "Oh dayummmm" feeling, whenever I finish something up.
Heck, I would be in total art-suspence had it not been for Sijun. This would probably have resulted in me comparing paintings or pictures with my closer circle of friends, none of which are really interested in art at all.

Needless to say, all I would get would be "Wow, that looks really good", regardless of what ever it was I produced.

Here, I haven't even started my own thread yet, because I simply don't feel I have anything good enough to post.
I have, admittedly, sent in a bit of critique to other's pictures and made my own trembling contributions to the theme-threads. I haven't really gotten a reply to more than ONE single post (Heaven knows they're not that many to begin with) of mine. This was, if I'm not mistaken, by either Morbid Guy or Cos.

Seriously, This was my expression at that point -->
Really.
Someone noticed. Someone I looked (and still look) up to.
Of course, I realize that this is perhaps not enough attention for everyone, and that the new forum rules might be stepping on some peoples' feet, but really... I could learn SO much more just by eavesdropping on pros displaying their art and having it (difficult word) crit.. uh... Critisized?

Heck, some day I'll post a prime example of what I mean by that. I ran into Henrik on ICQ a few months back, and I had produced a picture (that quite frankly sucked), which I bravely asked him to take a quick gaze at.
Fortunately for me, he wasn't really busy at the time and agreed. I was aware of the rather low-quality of the picture, but I really couldn't for the life of me figure out how to fix it. A few minutes later, I was presented with two quick repaints made by Henrik and a friend of his.

I looked at the pictures, said to myself that hey... I should be able to do something similar. Maybe.
Got to work, almost finished a day or two later, and figured that it was definitely without a shadow of a doubt my best work to date.

But I must admit that up until that point, pretty much all knowledge I had of just about anything regarding drawing came from self-studies and perhaps even moreso, visiting Sijun and listening in to what you guys were saying to eachother.

So, in conclusion, gather the elders if you can, and if that includes removing my posting priviledges, I for one wouldn't whine about it.

...Much

Oh and by the way, I really _love_ to see how so many of the forum members come together here and for once seem to agree almost completely. With a few exceptions, granted.
I hope Dhabih gets word about it at least, because really - I owe him greatly, as I'm sure quite a few others might as well.

Thanks for baring with me, and I hope to see Sijun around for at least a few more years.

- Johan.

[Awetopsy]

so we should just leave up the posts that look like they were done in 5 minutes and have a topic like "look at me, look at me, I drew something first time 'EVAR', with a mouse and one arm tied behind my back."

some of the people here are just that.. they post something they spent all of 3 minutes on, in a brand new thread, and then get upset when somebody tells them to put some effort into it. thats exactly what dillutes the quality of the art being shown by artists who put their lives into their art.

Sijun is a forum for serious artists, who love digital art, it always has been. but along comes the baby-brigade who start posting insane amounts of pictures, not because they want to learn, not because they want to improve, but because they want thier egos stroked. Then if they dont get their egos stroked they get upset with everybody and have a temper-tantrum-in-a-thread. Its juvenile and its bad for the forum...

No wonder Dhabih doesnt care for this place any more.

Before I registered I used to just sit and read, and I read, and i read, and i read the forums and I learned and I learned and I learned, and i drew and I drew, and I drew... until I felt that I could finally post something worth sharing, because it was something I thought was worth all the time and effort.

The people at Sijun taught me more about "good" art than anyody will ever know and I am so thankful for this place. Im willing to go through a few changes, big ones if necessary, to preserve this place as my artistic home on the net.

and personally Im very glad that some of the old timers still come back occasionally and share their work.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Matt Elder]

Hope that you are able to get this to work Sumaleth as I would love to have sijun on my daily surfing stops again!!

[AndyT]

I don't get it. Why shouldn't newbies be encouraged to post their art in separate threads.
Nobody has to read those, let alone to reply! Why does almost everybody get upset because of pictures that suck? I wouldn't get upset until the artist-to-be can't deal with the critiques...
It should almost be fun for advanced artists to list the mistakes they find.
The trivial stuff should appear from time to time and it won't be an issue in pieces from a higher league.

[Sumaleth]

AndyT: if all that was true there wouldn't be any need for this thread or the 20 other threads just like it from the last year.

Everyone here would LOVE for what you said to be true. It'd be great.

[Reid]

I�m against the newbie threads. The newbie threads kinda ruin the �elite art� feel of the forum, as well as drag down the overall quality when some punk sees a shitty posts in a newbie thread and says, �Hey, I�m better than that,� and goes ahead and posts some half-assed picture elsewhere just to prove he was better than a newbie thread.

On another note, I think everyone�s making entirely too big of a deal about the �You can�t define �quality� art!� situation. The mods deleting posts wouldn�t be high schoolers who�ve barely picked up a pencil�they understand how much effort went into newbie pictures because they were there once.

Personally, I prefer realistic art for two reasons: 1. The utter appreciation of the amount of time and effort spent to convey an idea through a realistic aspect; 2. I know it wasn�t a mistake.

I can�t stand abstract or non-objective art simply because there are too many cases where, even if the piece is exceptional, I can�t be sure it wasn�t some fluke accident that all the elements of art came together flawlessly. Abstract art is more complicated than twirling the mouse around and adding a few filters.

Anyway, that�s just my opinion on abstract and non-representational art versus realism. If you�re posting an abstract piece, all you would have to do is add an intro on not only what you were trying to convey, but why you think it works. �Well, this is a non-objective painting with an overall feeling of �sadness,� and I think it works because the focal point leads the eye throughout the piece in a spiral, which I meant to mean transcending into a dark void�(blah blah). Is the mood conveyed to you, and what do you think about that blue triangle in the center�(blah blah)�

Just anything more than �This piece means I�m sad, and I like it �cause it�s pretty,� because then when someone else tells you about the focal point/spiral thing and why your piece does or doesn�t work, then it defeats the purpose of you creating that piece of art because you had NO IDEA what you just did. Sometimes discovering something works because of something completely unintentional is exciting, but there has to be some basis to abstract art other than teen angst. Art is a very controversial subject, but I, for one, come here to see and talk (much less of the talk) about pleasing art, rather than arguing over what art is and how much talent it takes to make non-representational art.

If you�re a newbie artist, a different �style� can�t mask the underlying fact that you don�t know anything about art.

[oDD]

well said Reid

[Binke]

heh..

[Guy-Incognito]

I think you are doing a grand job Sumaleth, keep it going.

Flat...no this time I will resist.

There is so much to read here that I'm not too sure whether this has been suggested.

How about the NEWB is required to REQUEST a position in the better artist�s forums/threads? Prove he/she is good enough with an email to the moderators.

[jHof]

This place needs phpBB2.x

Loads faster, more control, more options.

Thank you, that is all.

[eyewoo]

reid wrote

quote

Quote:

I can�t stand abstract or non-objective art simply because there are too many cases where, even if the piece is exceptional, I can�t be sure it wasn�t some fluke accident that all the elements of art came together flawlessly.

I think I know where you're coming from... but it is that ability to find, to recognise, to know how to embrace the accident and make it work for you that is the essence of discovery. That applies to art, science and act of living. In my humble opinion...

[eyewoo]

For crying out loud... this is the internet... this is an open forum... let the newbie co-exist with the oldie... Let the oldie help the newbie, harshly, gently, with diplomacy or crass put downs. That's what its about my friends... let it happen...

[Bogus]

Still the question remains : Where is Sijun :-]

[ValarianROOT]

I think eyewoo has a very good point. The internet is a tool. This part of it may have been over-used and may never be able to bring back some of the "pros" so sorely missed. No matter what is done. In the long run I bet it will be people like Luna' and Suma' that keep it going.

Its scary/exciting waiting to see what, if any, of the suggestions will be implemented.

JN

P.S. Thank GOD the other boards are back up. And thank Dhabih even more for starting it all (the 'board that is).