[Gimbal8]

I try to be helpful whenever I can and point out things that don't look right or make suggestions, or compliment things that are done really well etc. But not having any formal art training I wonder sometimes if I'm doing more harm then good. Maybe my thoughts and suggestions might lead someone in the wrong direction or change something they should have left alone.

There are also many times I just feel completely indifferent about someone's artwork because I can't think of anything nice or bad to say. Many of the posts that go unreplied to are like that. I mean, I guess I could say "Keep at it" or "that isn't very interesting" or something but then would good would that do somebody?

In the end it would seem as though I'm trying to shape other's artwork into what I think would look good. And then I stop to think well, who the hell do I think I am anyway? Everyone's art director?

I'm sure a topic like this may have been posted before but what the hey...I was just wondering if anyone else wanted to share thier thoughts about critiqueing. What makes a good critique and when can a critque cross the line. Pros and cons of paintovers, whatever.

[iAm-Philter]

i'm pondering at the subject right now...
i'll get back to you...

[balistic]

You don't need to be knowledgable about all aspects of art to give a good critique . . . honestly, someone telling me what my work makes them think of, or how it makes them feel, is a very valuable exchange.

If somebody thinks my desert is a tundra, that lets me know that I may need to adjust things to make the piece read how I want it to. That kind of feedback also forces you to look at your piece in a different light . . . you can ask yourself "well, /does/ it look like a tundra?" . . . sometimes the viewer is wrong, and you can leave the image alone, but there's still some worth in reanylizing from a different perspective.

[Lunatique]

I think generally, the fundamentals of art techniques apply to all styles. When giving C&C, if you have doubts about whether or not a certain look to the work is intentional, ask the creator. But if you see obvious mistakes, point them out. If they are intentional, the creator will say so.

As far as shaping other's work into your own preferences, no one is 100% subjective. I wouldn't even worry about it. Just say, "I think (so and so), because I'm a fan of this(style/genre).

I think paintovers are a blessing. None of us had this kind of hands on interaction in the past, unless you meet someone face to face(even then, the most another artist would do is place a tracing paper over your work and correct the drawing). Now, with the internet, you can actually PAINT on top of another's work to demonstrate what you mean, and that is just AWESOME. Whatever negative aspects there might be(an advanced artist crushing the ego of a noob?), they are completely shadowed by the positve aspects.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[Kaete]

I agree that paintovers are *wonderful*, coming or going. Often I find it much easier to *show* how I might change something then *tell*. And when someone does a paintover on one of my pieces, it really helps me understand what they mean.

[spooge demon]

I don't think I will be doing anymore paint overs. A lot of people don't like it. Not sure why, I always appreciated it when someone painted over one of mine.

As far as critiques, informed or otherwise, I like all kinds. That is one reason why I like Sijun. As I have said before, my dad ,who has not one art bone, gives the best critique. He just looks quickly and says "it looks wierd" and off he goes.

Sometimes the best crit from an art director is "it needs to be better" If a half assed opinion is offered as to what to do about it, you are then obliged to follow it, so you have a new boil to be lanced along with the original. If the illustrator is hired for an expertise, then let the expertise solve the problem.

From the trenches- a "french alteration" is one where the AD says make it a leeetle longer/bluer/lighter. You say OK, do nothing and re-submit the work. The AD then says ah, perfect! What a genius I am!

hehe...he.eeh

[Lunatique]

NOOOO!!!! Spooge!

PLEASE don't stop doing paint overs!!!

*tears about to fall*

All of your paint overs are excellent lessons to be learned from. Even if the person you painted over felt differently, EVERYONE ELSE that sees the paint over can learn something from it.

Who didn't like your paint over? As far as I've seen, everyone seems to love it. Was there a thread I missed?

[surferboi]

pictures speak a thousand words.. but your paintovers fill novels. im sorry you are going to stop doing them, i for one will truly miss seeing them.

[Gimbal8]

Wow, I never realized anyone could come up with a con for paintovers. I just kinda put that in my message wondering if there even was one, but mostly to get people talking about paintovers more since they are so dramtically and instantly instructional.

Spooge: The paintover you did for me not too long ago I still have set as my desktop image. I'm still learning from it. I do a lot more speed painting stuff and try to put into practice what you and others have said in that thread. But the paintover gave me the context by which to understand what was being said in such a way that words can probably never do. And if I haven't said so I should definity say now that it was greatly appreciated, beyond what my limited vocabulary could convey. I hope one day to show everyone that the time they spent helping me was not in vain.

Now I'm off to crit some pictures and horribly fail at applying what I learned to my own stuff. But before I go, Spooge reminded me of a crit someone gave me once that was kinda funny:

My wife walked by one time and said, "What's that?". The time it took me to look away from the monitor to her and back again was all I needed to see that she was right. What was that? Save changes before closing? I think not.

[BlackPool]

Personally I wish more people would be a little harsher with thier critiques. I think everyone is so afraid of hurting someone else's feelings that they are unwilling to tell someone what they really feel or give a sweetned version of it. I am including myself in this as well. I have probably gyped several people by giving a light version what what I really think. Will I be more forthcomming in the futher? I really don't know to tell you the truth. Should I?

Where this is comming from is that one of the frustrations I am going through personally is that I can't seem to create works of art that really connect with people and I know that I will never be able to connect with my work until I understand what people like and what they don't.

NOTE: Just so you know, when I post something, if you all think it sucks, say it sucks. Don't sugar coat it.

[Gimbal8]

BlackPool: I kinda feel the same way sometimes. I have little to no ego to begin with so there is little damage someone can do by bringing down the hammer on my work, so long as it is constructive criticism. Saying "it sucks" wouldn't be much help to be compared to if someone told me why it sucks. If someone said, "You captured an incredible likeness of vomit in that picture" as a way to tell me my color picking needs work then it just takes me longer to get past the insult and try to form it into some kind of criticism I can use. However if someone said my color picking was bad and I should try to limit my palette, then I have feedback that is immediately more useful.

Not only would the last example of criticism be more useful for me, but I think it helps the person who is critiquing. Being able to look at a picture, see what is wrong with it, and determine a course of action that would correct it is a very important skill to learn. I think the better someone is at it, the better they are with their own artwork.

As far as not sugar coating the comments, maybe we should put something in our signature that indicates we don't want anyone pulling any punches. I think I'll go do that now as a matter of fact.

[Frost]

What really eats me is when I genuinely try to help people (some of them respected artists) and they blow me off, either because they only want praises or because they are bitter about 'that other place', thinking I'm a sexist elitist *sshole. I don't have to waste my time trying to write helpful comments to people that don't want to hear them (from me or not)... whatever. Some people don't like paintovers, that is also true. So you have to try to keep a mental list of people with egos and insecurities and not reply to them, or, just forget the whole commenting thing...

Sorry for the rant.

[Duckman2]

I just think alot of times people duck under their lack of technical skill by saying something like, "oh uhh thats my style and I think imperfections are cool." Yeah thats fine if you've been at it for years, are insanely good at the fundamentals of art and you CHOOSE to do something in an out of the ordinary way. Furthermore it's not like I'm some great art god, but somethimes the stuff that is posted on this site really does suck and sometimes I do really want to say that "it sucks" but like Gimbal, said it really doesn't serve anybody to utterly tear down someone's work. Critiques need to have some substance to them telling the person what exactly sucks AND how to make it better. Paint overs are the best way to do this, turning spoken advice into something tangible is very difficult to do in the minds eye. Thats why I hated high school art class so much. The teachers had a phobia of showing you what they meant, but at the Art Students League the instructor will describe whats wrong as he's showing you how to fix it. After one of these little sessions you go "oh thats what he means". This is much more efficent than *ucking around in front of a canvas for two hours trying to turn spoken words into a color or a line. Maybe the people with huge egos need afew holes punched in em (The egos not the person)

[Novacaptain]

I critique in the same way i expect to recieve critique from others...

I'd do paintovers more regularly if i felt more confident that i'd do more good than harm.

Being straight to the point and explaining my statements as well as i can, is important. I find it hard to say that I dislike something about a picture...perhaps i should do so more often.

I do try to let people know what i feel are the strong points in their pictures.

Overpaintings rule, i can't hink of any logical (and good reason) why anyone would object...After all it's not a way to say "this is what it should look like" it's more of an example as to how another artist would approach the same subject matter. On top of that it reveals a lot of techniques and "problem solvers" that can be taken in to improve one's learning curve.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Novacaptain ]

[BlackPool]

FROST: I welcome anything you want to say about my work.

I have also gotten those brush offs. I know it's not very incouraging, and I keep track of who has done it to me too. Those people will never get another word from me.

GIMBAL8: That's a good Idea about the signature. I think I might do that myself.

I understand that most people like it when you explain why you think something could be better. I make a point of when I critique a work that I give at least one compliment (most of the time it's 2 or more because it's just that easy ) and point out only those faults in the work that I think are the most glairing . Then end with a something incouraging like "your doing great" or "keep up the good work." I know this seems kind of cookie cutter, but I don't know what else to do without offending people. If anyone has a critique for my critiques let me know

But for me, I am more like Spooge Demon on this. I like it better when I get things like, "Eh, that's alright" or "Uuuugh, I don't know...there's something missing in that background" or my personal favorite, "Is that a boy or a girl?" or the famous "That just sux, dude!" I like it better this way for me because most of the time I seem to be able to figure out the problem on my own once I am aware that there is one.

[Anthony]

Don't say that spooge, you know you enjoy doing paintovers, and most of us love getting spooged. ;] I think with critiqueing, in the end, its a matter of giving and not expecting a return. Giving selflessly-a very Western philosophyish idea I know, but really, you can't expect to always see a good result, or a thanks, or even something other than a scowl, for trying to help. I don't even read a thread after I've critiqued a piece, cause I did my part, and don't really care what happens next. Frost-you'll always run into that. If they get mad, or ignore you, screw 'em. Its a matter of philosphy, so don't let silly earthy matters interfere.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Maybe people should have to make a choice: "Do you like others doing overpaints on your stuff, yes or no?" before they're allowed to register in a forum like this, then a little icon next to their nick will tell us what their choice is.

[Socar MYLES]

I was scrolling down this post a little too quickly, and took this line from Anthony's post entirely out of context: "Most of us love getting spooged." I blinked a couple of times, then a little exclamation point appeared over my head. (Well, not really, but that was the general effect.) Then I scrolled back up and realized (duh) what he really meant.

Anyway, apart from my Freudian mind-slips, there, all I had to say was that I've got nothing against overpaints, myself. I can't recall anyone ever doing one to any of my work, but I wouldn't be offended if someone did. As long as they didn't stick their signature on it and start using it as a portfolio piece, or some similar nonsense.

As far as crits go...I know I'm usually too lazy to respond to my own threads & thank those who have taken the time to critique me, but I really do appreciate them and read them all.

It's true that some people get defensive when they see a critique, even a good one, but I've also noticed that a lot of those people take the advice anyway, albeit without grace. So...yeah...I think it's best just to speak one's mind. Any damage to the ego of the poster tends to be temporary. It's annoying to get flamed for trying to help someone--I remember being particularly honked when someone (a quite well-respected someone, too--and no, I won't mention any names) sent me a mail telling me I wasn't good enough to critique his work--but it doesn't happen that often.... I think most people here take it quite well.

Yup.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Socar MYLES ]

[shaithis]

Maybe people need to *request* overpaints?

I haven't done much art lately - been busy with literary pursuits... but I know that one of my LIFELONG goals is to create something good enough that spooge even bothers to overpaint it. =)

May take me twenty years to reach that point but, dammit, it'll be a great day indeed!

-chris

[Kaete]

Blackpool, I use the Cookie-Cutter C&C too.

First, I say a nice general comment about the piece, like "Ah, what a pretty house!"

Then in the middle I put the real meat of the C&C.

"I think the door is just a little lop-sided. If you nudged the left side in a little, that should really help. And maybe the house would connect better to the ground if you painted a little grass over the edge."

Very occasionally, I'll put in a paint-over too.

Then I'll end with one specific compliment.

"Great trees around the house!"

That way the C&C starts positively and ends positively. Then they are less likely to ignore your crit because they got upset.

Sure, it may be a little too sweet. But them Mom always said that sugar helps the medicine go down.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Kaete ]

[rYaNn]

i think a true artist would understand that every artist is his/her own artist and that the only "critique" you can offer is to say "i do like it, i don't like it"

because no artist can sit and decide if another person is as qualified as an artist too. look at how the impressionists were approached. they tried to tell monet he wasn't an artist. he deserves to have a smug look on his face now.

there are some things as far as seeing the intent of an artist and saying "oh you didn't quite nail that" but if you can only think that this is what I myself would have tried for, don't sit and say "you should have done this instead" because that's only waht YOU would have done.
instead say "this is what i would have done, it's a suggestion." but this is a tainted viewpoint as i expressed something similar in my first ever topic over in finished works.

[spooge demon]

Steven always gets to the heart of it.

There was a plein-aire workshop here not long ago and a big shot oil painter had about 10 students. The cost was high and I think a lot of students were combining vacation and workshop. The teacher began critiqueing seriously. Tears and refunds soon followed.

I think there are two kind of personalities, ones that will either learn from a critique, maybe get pissed and get motivated to do better, the other one needs support and encouragement, and will bloom under that.

So Steven�s idea should be anywhere near artistic hardhat areas- check the box, how does your brain work?

I guess I will do paintovers, I like to do them for the same reason I like being an illustrator as opposed to a fine artist. There is a problem that is imposed on me and I have to solve it. If I were a fine artist, I would not grow as much, I think. But I do understand that a paintover can be highly insulting, and I have tried to be a little sensitive to that. I think I will be more sensitive to it in the future. And of course, anyone is welcome to say anything they want or paint on my stuff anytime they want.

The person being critted will make the determination of the value of the crit, as to its relevance to intentions, technical worth, etc.

[Soulfuct]

I think most artists starting out wan't to run before they crawl before they walk and that is why they would get offensive with harsh crit and paintovers.

I rember telling this guy to use hard brushes for his painting to give it a more solid definition and more value instead of soft brushes and I was banned from the boards because he was some immature 15 year old moderator.
No skin off my nose, I was trying to help the best I could and he could not fathom the idea that somebody more experienced was finding fault with his *masterpiece* and correcting him.

I agree with Steve that understanding of paintovers and decent crit inside the forums should be a definate must when people are in the process of registering to post their work.

[Snake Grunger]

It's easier to lick ass than to kick ass.

[Gimbal8]

It certainly would help if we knew before even opening a thread that C&C and overpaints were welcome or not. Last thing any of us want to do is to waste our time on someone who thinks we can't help them in anyway.

Maybe I'll start putting [CCO] as a suffix to my subject lines. Meaning comments, crits, and overpaints welcomed. Heh, or next to my name like a clan thing.

I can see the clan wars now. Comments, crits and overpaints [CCO] vs the Only Positive Praise [OPP] clan.

rYaNn: I respect everyone the right to their own opinion. So here is mine in reguards to yours, as it is a perfect example of the issue at hand:

By the message in your signature ("who's the artist, who's the critic?")you seem to want to polarize artist and critics. And you are also presenting a false choice, as if one can either be an artist or a critic. When I commented on your work, did that make me not an artist? Is that what you are trying to say? Anyone who sees your work will form an opinion about it, they are your audience. If you don't want people to form their own opinions about your work, you'll just have to keep it out of their sight. There is no getting around that. And throwing egg shells all around you and demanding people not step on them will only make them mad. Only you can decide who's criticism you find valid, true. But try to be a little more open minded. Nobody is going to suddenly think your artwork is fantastic by throwing Picasso's or Monet's name around. It is going to have to stand on its own merits and it is going to have to be subjected to other people's opinions. If you don't feel comfortable with that...well, prepare to feel uncomfortable.

[ceenda]

I think the question people need to ask when posting art at Sijun is:

"what am I wanting to get out of posting here?".

If it's praise, then that person should bear in mind the market for awesome art tends to be pretty saturated here even at the quietest of times.

I've never understood why people object to genuinely helpful paint-overs. It's a visual way of saying "Hey, I like your work and I want to help you improve." I've had a number of people do paint-overs for my work, and to get uppity and offended about it is to close off an avenue of learning that is very valuable in refining your skills.

[rYaNn]

listen gimbal, had you checked your inbox you would have never bothered to write all that crap because i plainly and openly said that YOUR criticism before was WELCOME. i took you advice. and i still will take your advice although you as a person are not impressing me right now.

you took what i was saying to duckman to heart for yourself. i liked your criticism. and the sig isn't asking to polarize it's saying that NOT EVERY artist is a critic.

i had wrestling coaches that could NEVER have wrestled on their own. on the other hand my first wrestling coach was BAD ASS at wrestling.

you take me WAY out of proportion and i'd really appreciate it if you looked in your inbox and took another look at my thread. i think some things will clear up.

[ceenda]

quote

Quote:

i had wrestling coaches that could NEVER have wrestled on their own. on the other hand my first wrestling coach was BAD ASS at wrestling.

Sorry, you lost me after this bit...

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: ceenda ]

[rYaNn]

wrestling coaches are like critics for artists. they coach.

wrestlers are like the artists. got me so far?

so some wrestling coaches can wrestle, some of them can't. i was just trying to say that some critics aren't really the artists they profess to be and some artists aren't the critics they profess to be either.
it really had no direct pertinence to anything that I myself have been involved with it's other things i've seen around the forum. although i can see how you would apply it to my thread and this.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: rYaNn ]

[Kaete]

quote:

---

I've never understood why people object to genuinely helpful paint-overs. It's a visual way of saying "Hey, I like your work and I want to help you improve." I've had a number of people do paint-overs for my work, and to get uppity and offended about it is to close off an avenue of learning that is very valuable in refining your skills.

---

That's really true, ceenda. I am a very lazy person. And I would rather be working on my own art then someone else's. So when I do a rare paintover, it means something in your picture really caught my eye.

A paintover means "This picture/artist has a lot of potential and I think I can help," not "Hey, that sux!"