[Revility]

Well many of u don't know me and haven't seen any of my work, though I have been here for a couple of years under different names.

But lately there seems to be allot of noobs running around here. Most do not understand that the best criticism you can get is harsh because being a good artist isn't something you just learn over night, it takes years of practice, 15 for me and still learning.

You want tutes and advice.... go to school or do what most of did before the luxury of the internet came, teach yourself and buy a ton of books and show people your stuff and take every bit of advice they can give you. In my opinion that is the best ways to learn or as Akolyte put it best ;

"Practice/bustyourass/moaninagonybecauseyousuck/practicesomemore/getselfgratitude/bustyourass/getinspired/absorb/practicesomemore/bustyourass.
Rinse and Repeat.

Until you listen to these people who have done things you still dream of doing, then nothing will be you. Of course that’s my opinion I could be wrong.

Later,
Revility

[Dr. Bang]

I completely agree! A good example would be Craig Mullins, his art teacher told him that he suck and.........well you know what happen to him.

[Queezy]

Harsh criticism is the best free advice you'll ever get.

[Liser Studios]

rambling and repeating things over again ahead:

hey, i know this might not be (hopefully isn't) directed towards me...
i know you might not know me (i'm pretty new here) and you might consider me a newbie, but i'm here to learn. and not through tutorials... i'm hoping that i can do a lot of anatomy sketches (every day for at least an hour) and a project every week also, and post it up every friday or so. then people could critique my anatomy studies and my finished stuff
but yeah, i'm not here looking for a tutorial that will magically make me better over night.
sorry, i just want to state my intentions for being here. i know how much "newbies" suck (not because they're not good, but because they sometimes are cocky and think they magically learn art in one night) but i have good intentions being here. I want to learn everything I can from you guys here... At the old forums i went to it was just a bunch of 13 year olds who talk about "bishies" all the time. I wanted to move up and absorb as much as i can from people better than me, and thus improve my art. I just hope people don't push me away because of me being new...
sorry for the rambling.
the biggest problem is getting my darn stuff up... I take FOREVER to get pics done, meaning I'll work on something 2 hours a day, and not get the pencil drawing up for 2 weeks.
but yeah, next time you see my art around here, mind giving me lotsa critiques? and really harsh too. it hurts for a second, but it helps you in the end
thanks for listening to the rambling madness.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Liser Studios ]

[jabber]

i cant help but to agree with Revliity, however, a concern that is being overlooked maybe by a few of the old skoolers out there.
Good art teachers do give harsh reality checked critiques, but then they build you back up after ripping you an new asshole.

the first part is easily done on forums likes these, its the second part that seems to be the most difficult.

your art teacher, is someone you know, is somebody there and is just more real then a couple of names floating on the internet saying "You suck! Try again!"

Mostly, however, I've seen a lot of good efforts on most of the members here, which is super cool. supportive, honest and direct.

uhh, so ya. there ya go.

[Qjackson]

I believe when you said "harsh critisim" you meant "constructve no fluff critisim," I'm all for that. I'm new to this paticular forum, but I'm not really a "newbie" since I've been going to art forums for a looooong time. The one thing that always amuses me is that everyone compains about some artists wanting people to be gentel. EVERYWHERE. lol, you just really need to let people learn through experience. If they find out that tutoriols don't really help other than give you a new point of veiw, and they start wearing that pencil down than good for them. If they don't then that's their own loss. Let them be, there's no simple fix to an on going problem.

[bigfoot]

You've got to be shitting me!!!!!!
NO ONE deserves harsh crits!!!!!!
Constuctive crits are ALWAYS good.
But, unless i misunderstand you people, you are talking about tearing someones
work to bits! Shame on you!
I bet if you posted your high school portfolio, it would suck "big time"!
How dare you think it's O.K. to crush someone's art and feelings !
I'll tell you what, I'll post against your post and if yours is not up to my 20+ years
of experience, we'll just rip yours to shreds! Then you can see what it feels like to
be on the end of the shit stick.....grow up!!!!

[Revility]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Qjackson is right what i am trying to say here, "constructve no fluff critisim."

Which depending on who your showing yor work to and learning from can be pretty harsh at times. The first time I showed somebody my work, it was to a traditional painter who just tore it to shreds, he wasn't too big into fantasy material. He was right about allot of stuff in all, so I accepted what he said and went to learn how to fix my mistakes. Later on I should somebody my material who was in the comics and fantasy field, he gave me "constructve no fluff critisim." Both were equally helpfull sense if you want to make believable fantasy, you must learn how to make real life stuff before you can break the rules.

And Bigfoot, the real world is dark, cold, bitter and unforgiving. Everybody needs a reality check every so often to keep them in line. But in all take what I say with a glass of water becuase its just my opinion and nothing more...

[Anthony]

Come now bigfoot, you can't honestly think these guys are suggesting being undeservedly brutal with anyone. As for the original poster, of course, there's no other useful way to critique. But always remember that if you give a detailed, harsh critique, half the people will love you and half hate you. Just the way it works.

[Awetopsy]

Bigfoot: The world is harsh critisism. No designer submits a peice for approval and doesnt have somebody say "It sucks". Any designer will tell you that its constant changes and reworkings and learning and resubmitting and reworking etc. and people are going to look at your work and Say "IT SUCKS" and they wont even give a reason why.. thats why its good to have another artist say "it sucks" because at least they'll give a reason why. Hopefully that reason why will sink in and help you become better. Or you can whine and complain about them saying "it sucks" and completely miss the point of why they said it.

The world is too fast to give constructive critisism. At least with other artists we can learn a thing or two.

[Akolyte]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Revility:
In my opinion that is the best ways to learn or as Akolyte put it best ;

"Practice/bustyourass/moaninagonybecauseyousuck/practicesomemore/getselfgratitude/bustyourass/getinspired/absorb/practicesomemore/bustyourass.
Rinse and Repeat.

---

Lol, after a while here at sijun, attempting to get into a good art school, and realizing how much I really suck until I have applied myself tenfold, it's really the only viable option for getting anywhere.

[bigfoot]

Yes Anthony,
I do belive that most of these people who posted here haven't been in or near a college in recent years. Or have never been in an college at all....... where people learn not from being torn apart, but learned by construstive crits.

I'm not talking about telling anyone they are wonderful ...when they need to be
told what's wrong with their work. But, you guys sound like your shit smells like
ice cream, and you can do no wrong. Again , I challange anyone who has posted
here to go "head to head" with me in a contest. And when we submit the work to
a guild or illustration society, I know i will win. But, that doesn't matter. What matters is if I tell the looser, they "suck", and give them no encouragement,
I think it's like a sharp stick in the eye . No one learns anything from sharp sticks
in the eye. Or up their ass.
Go back to school and see if you learn from constructive crits or out right insults!
Most of you have the need to push the stick into someone's eye or ass.
Shame on you all!

[bigfoot]

Awetopsy,
I have never, ever, had an art director, art buyer, agent, designer, or head designer
tell me my work "sucked"!!!!!
Obviously you have. And you just want to rip others apart for their nasty remarks!

[Quasar]

Uhhh I can tell you that a whole of good artists here have left cause this place at one time was nothing but a sewer. All people did was rip each other apart and it got worse and worse..I don't want to see it like that again so my philosophy is if you don't have something nice to say don't say it at all unless you have something helpful to add and they are asking for help in the first place!!!! Some people actually do come here for fluff cause sometimes in the real world you never hear it even if you are good. Personally I think a lot of people know if there pictures or a picture is not getting a lot of response it's probebly not very well done.

[bigfoot]

Lo, you are one confused person.
On one hand , you are telling us that this teacher was a prick and ruined your life.
On another hand, you are telling us that he was the best teacher you ever had because after years of his verbal abuse, you never forgot what he said, and your so gratefull.
I simply don't understand what you are saying.

[bigfoot]

Quasar,
I agree with you complely!!!!!!!!
Thank you.......bigfoot

[Revility]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigfoot:
But, you guys sound like your shit smells like
ice cream, and you can do no wrong. Again , I challange anyone who has posted
here to go "head to head" with me in a contest. And when we submit the work to
a guild or illustration society, I know i will win.

---

Just think about what you just wrote....

[lafolli]

no I'm not saying that he ruined my life.
All I'm saying is that my perception of his teaching methods has changed over time. I still think he's a prick, and I still probably wouldnt speak to him if I saw him today... But I value everything I learn if it is valid knowledge, no matter how I learned it. To me that's what being an artist is all about, being willing to learn from any experience no matter how hard.

[Audi_0000]

just out of curiosity,,,,can we see your work there bigfoot?....

[Lunatique]

My 2 cents:

Criticism does not have to be harsh to be effective. You only need to be honest and considerate.

You can say one of the following, and if these comments were posted about YOUR work, which would you prefer?

1) "Dude, you're proportions are totally off. You made his head look like a giant baloon and his torso is like a slimey slug. And what's up with the ugly colors? Are you color blind or something? Why don't you go back and learn the basics before posting your poor excuse for a drawing here?"

2)Your proportions need work. Remember, the head is never as big as a person's chest, unless it's a diseased head(in that case, you are right). Try not to draw the torso like a round barrel. There's the rib-cage, the spine, shoulders..etc. I would suggest you look at some figure drawing books and get a basic idea of the body's structure before attempting a drawing like this. As far as colors go, I would tone down the saturation and not use so many contrasting colors(that means, when you use many colors that exist on the opposite spectrum of the color wheel, it can get noisy really fast"

Now, which one of the two comments are more helpful, easier to swallow, and encouraging?

[smalbrain]

I totally agree with Bigfoot - any form of "constructive criticism" sux because all it does it make people not do 'this' or 'that'. It's Restrictive thinking.

Positive criticism - saying what parts work and what is awesome helps because it opens people up to more likely explore more often and be confident about making mistakes and see for THEMSELVES what doesnt work - noone EVER needs someone tell them they suck.

[HawkOne]

I think the best would be to join those two options from Lunatiques post together, 1 AND 2. Depending on who gives it, the more advise the merrier, good or bad.

We as reasoning humans/artists should be able to separate the good crits from the bad, while at the same time not being scared of hearing some extreme views. Especially on a web-board like this where EVERYONE has a say, either way it is impossible to police. If a mind is so fragile that a person would commit seppuku when hearing someone don't like your work, for whatever reason, then I don't think that sugarcoating everything will help either. Of course it has everything to do with who are saying what.

Some examples if you will ..
A hypothetical situation. If Loki or spooge demon took the time to tell me that my work sucks, in that many words (just an example ), I would even take that as good advice, since it would make me think, hmm what is wrong, and where. If they used more descriptions and suggestions, it would be proportionately better. Most people on the board here respect them (and many others !!!) as great artists, in the context of who frequents this board anyway, and know that they know what they are talking about. Even though they are too humble or modest to admit to it, which, I guess, is good.

However, if a dilettante who thinks that copying the powerpuff girls style is the peak of art history, says the same, the advice could easily be ignored, since you as an artist knows better.

Any advice, good or bad, means NOTHING unless you know and trust who it is coming from. If you know your stuff, and the language/culture barrier is not to great, as an artist or even an aspirant, you should know how to sift out most of the trash, simply by reading the reply. It is usually easy to spot who knows what they are talking about, and who don't. This is of course why Lumental was formed (for better or for worse), because it makes it easier to trust the advice of those giving crits, because members there have been "checked out" in order to join that community of artists past "the threshold". Subjectivity and camaraderie seems to be part of the selection process, so I'm not sure how successful it will be. Probably because of that, they are too few to make it an active board though, so it is not as fun there as it is here ...

How else could we have such hilarious and furious feuds as this one right here, where clueless and learned discuss life, and how to live it ..

I do however object to having art teachers tear up your work though, because it is simply not necessary. Instead a comment like: "Nope, it's no good, start over again." should do fine. A melodramatic display of the instructors frustration serves no purpose, other than maybe showing you to what degree he is disappointed with you. I too had some of my charcoal life drawings savaged by the art instructor, and, I don't blame him, even then I thought they sucked. And it just made me try harder.

smalbrain ( how fitting ) said this: "any form of "constructive criticism" sux" ... That is just about the dumbest thing I have heard ANYONE say, except maybe some of the things bigfoot has managed. (Adding fuel to the fire)

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[bigfoot]

Hi awetopsy,
I would like to thank you for your kind response on another post.

[lafolli]

In my second year at art school, I had a figure painting teacher who is legendary at my school for being nothing short of an asshole. I was warned beforehand that if I took his class, I would be in for it. I didnt quite take them seriously enough and I enrolled in the class anyway. I found out in short order exactly what they meant. I have never heard anyone make so many sarcastic remarks on such a consistent basis, and not jokingly, but said in such a condescending and snide manner... one or two people left after the first week never to return. I even knew one girl who left after add/drop period and thus wasted her money on a class she didn't even take. I myself was almost in tears one day after he said something particularly cutting to me. One thing he used to do that really pissed me off was to walk by and pick up one of my paintbrushes, dip it in black -- not yellow, not white, but BLACK -- paint, then draw over my canvas, blotting out what I'd already painted. Then I would spend hours trying to get the mucky blackness out of my colors. I almost decided that year to quit art school, and even tho I didnt end up doing that, it was a long time before I even thought of doing figurative work again.
That is my art school horror story. My point? Well... as hard and as depressing as that class was (I started smoking during that semester after having quit for nearly 10 years), I don't think I ever took another class at that school which stuck with me as much as that class did. Recently I have been getting back into doing figures, and I have noticed that some of the things he used to say have been jumping up at me out of my subconscious, things that I had forgotten up til now. THESE THINGS WERE THE MOST VALUABLE BITS OF INFORMATION THAT I LEARNED IN ALL MY 5 YEARS IN SCHOOL. It occured to me the other day that perhaps I learned those things better because of the harshness and sarcasm, that perhaps he forced something home to me that had yet to surface. I don't know exactly, but I do know that I can have my work critiqued up, down and sideways now and no one still can ever come close to the harshness of this guy's crits. I mean, one time he told this guy his painting was a "Godawful piece of shit" during a formal critique!
The main thing I learned from this instructor was that no painting is ever "set in stone" no matter how far along, and that at any time the artist should be willing to obliterate it or any part of it in order to make it come together. NO part of your work is precious and you should always be willing to give up one thing in order to replace it with something better. THat is how I work now, and it works very well for me. If I see something wrong with the proportions and try to make it work by redrawing, sometimes I have to end up redrawing the entire piece, not just that first bit... in order to make it work with the whole, I have to give up other parts of the piece that might have been "precious" otherwise. I think that principle can hold true no matter whether you are drawing, painting, or modeling in 3d. If the piece as a whole doesnt work then you have to sit back and reconsider it. That, I believe, came of his using black paint to redraw my paintings. It taught me that even if I thought my first strokes of paint on the canvas were awesome, that maybe they werent as awesome as I first thought, and so I must go back and look at it as a whole.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on critiques. It makes for a good art-school drama tale, anyway, so one day I'll have a story to tell my grandkids to scare them away from going to art school. ;P

[Awetopsy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigfoot:
Awetopsy,
I have never, ever, had an art director, art buyer, agent, designer, or head designer
tell me my work "sucked"!!!!!
Obviously you have. And you just want to rip others apart for their nasty remarks!

---

I have? I do? ok....

[Qjackson]

wow, everyone has made some very interesting points havn't they? One side says they don't want artists nit picking their work, and the other side comes back with the fact that without being slapped in the face every now and again you get nowhere. I think maybe the way ppl are interpeting "constructive crit." varies.

Constructive: helpful and useful

criticism: to tell someone what he or she has done wrong; to point out the good and bad parts of something

See? That isn't so grusome is it? I got that from the dictionary. There's even the word good somewhere. I just think everyones a bit too uptight, we're here to because we want to have fun and voice our opinions right? Lets just not get carried away.

[black_fish]

Criticism is good. Harsh criticism is just stupid.
If somebody tells you your art sucks, be it Mullins or Chiang, smack him the face, because good art starts with respect not with insult.

A few years back harsh criticism from a bunch of assholes almost killed me: I was so disspointed with my results that I just stopped drawing totally. Until one day I said 'Fuck them!'. I started drawing and painting again, and I have been working for 9 years now doing only art 8 hours a day. And with a good pay.
Morality: do you own stuff, work on it, and if people are ready to pay for it that means they like it. All the rest is just noise.