[Rag]

This is a fun little image I created a few days ago, took about 2 hours. The structures are rendered with the obvious pallette knife filter thrown in. The reason behind the subject line above is that I've noticed everyone here hates filters. Does it matter? It is a personal preference is it not? I did get the image where I wanted it. There are alot of folks here whose assholes seem bound up so tight that they have forgotten why we all started out drawing and painting. It's F****g Fun People! When we were children we didn't care how we achieved are little refrigerator pic, only that we liked it. Brown paper bag and crayons would do just fine. It seems some of you have lost that. Critiques are one thing, but to just rant on about the filter is not very constructive.

Anyway, I'm not professional, so take my rantings however you wish. And if this message excommunicates me from the forum, so be it, we all have our opinions.

[kapowee]

Amen my brother

[kapowee]

btw, beautiful picture

[Dthind]

I'm with ya brother

[hennifer]

the reason that many people frown on using filters is that they're used the wrong way: as a crutch.

you've used them the right way, to tastefully enhance a picture, not to cover up flaws. and that's cool.

your picture is really nice. i think the clouds could be worked on some more, tho. they don't have the same delicate look that the buildings do. if you want some cloud inspiration, loki and ceenda have posted some pictures with nice clouds in them. maybe check their websites.

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jeffery_

[nt]

Count me in buddy!

And hey I love that pic it gives me warm and wet feeling!

[RobT]

Does it matter? It is a personal preference is it not? I did get the image where I wanted it. There are alot of folks here whose assholes seem bound up so tight that they have forgotten why we all started out drawing and painting. It's F****g Fun People!


Amen to that. I agree with you on the above
although I do agree that they are sometimes used as a crutch. When I started in digital I messed around with filters and every thing but I have stopped using them so I can concentrate on skill and technique with the paintbrush.
A good artist will be able to utilize them in an appropriate way to enhance an image such as you have achieved.

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RobT

www.gameart.com/mindstorm
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

[Bare Bonez]

<click set as wallpaper>

Man that's one awesome picture. Love it. It kind of reminds me a bit of impressionistic stuff. Very calm and surreal.

As for filters! I think your picture needs more lens flare .. Just joking. Quoting Deng Xiao Ping, "Black cat or White cat makes no difference as long as it catches the mice."

-b�

[This message has been edited by Bare Bonez (edited December 20, 2000).]

[Starseed]

I'll say it too, great picture.

Though . . . I think everything in lower half is perfect, I'm not a big fan of the weird-looking clouds, and the (stylized?) rain. Though, I don't know what I could say to describe how to make them better. It may be the thickness, it may be that they are too smooth and consistent (same with clouds) or it could be something else . . .

-mt

[Pigeon]

Hey, people use erasers as crutches too (as corrective devices instead of another drawing tool), and the 'undo' feature, but do we call them on it? Not usually. People don't enjoy and work off of their mistakes enough.

i guess i don't have much of an opinion either way. Yeah it's best to use filters as a tool like any other, but hey, there's lots of 'accepted' ways to cover up mistakes (see prev. paragraph), so why complain?

nice use of the filet BTW Rag. It adds a nice rainy feel, and even classical look to the piece.

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-Pigeon
http://www.darklight.org/dunakin

[Pigeon]

Following on what Starseed said,
I think the problem is that there are two definite halves, and they don't have much in common with one another, other than color. The stlye of rendering is different, the horizon line creates a definite break almost in the middle of the piece, and the raindrops are treated differently in the top and bottom, and are lost amid the horizon line. The raindrops (or the rainy feeling in general) actually might be a good way to bring the piece together, if you can darken them in some parts in the horizon, and just make their presentation more consistent throughout.

Just some thoughts Take 'em or leave 'em

[Mozeman]

What does the love of art have to do with the filter debate?

I think filters that render a "painterly" look are pointless, in the same way that 50 different fonts on a flyer are pointless. Unless they are CAREFULLY and judiciously used, they make the image look amateurish. If you could paint it yourself, then why would you use a paint filter?

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I don't recall any specific examples.

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Mozeman
Moser Brothers Animation Forum

[Pigeon]

exception: commercial art

when your art director wants some cheesy picture by 3pm and it's 2:15 already, it's easier, faster, and cheaper to slap on a filter then paint the thing.

Usually such situations 'filter' down from the marketing department. . .

[u2art]

Pigeon you are a GOD...that undo comment was like music to my ears...people who do digital art rant on people for filters and cheesy crap, when they are copying comics...and using UNDOS!!!!! There are no undos in traditional media!!!!!
Pigeon why are you sooo smart...oh, and thanks to Rag for posting it.
Art

[kanabis]

and layers ...

[EviLToYLeT]

Heh. Filters. Rofl. That old age argument again. The truth is, go ahead and use filters. At first, noone really cared and everyone thought they were cool right? Right. Pretty soon everyone started using it. And from there on, it gets boring and crappy as hell. It's the same lame lens flare on everything. If all you saw in the artworld were the same style over and over with the same kind of effect over and over, it would get pretty boring. Filters are indeed crutches and they really don't do much. Also, keep inn mind that photoshop was originally intended for "photo editing." Go ahead and use filters, but at one point they get cheesy and trite. Might as well take the time to learn how to do that effect and augment your knowledge.

[AlieN]

everyone has the same stuff in mind, but not everyone here is patient enough to explain their thoughts completely.

it seems we agree that:
1) some people use filters well
2) some people use filters badly
3) some people use filters as a crutch to hide their lack of talent, and thusly they give filters a bad name
4) art is great for art's sake alone, and _how_ a picture is made is not as important as how the picture _looks_. (knowing process is only neccesary to evaluate the skill of the artist)

[Rag]

kapowee: Thank you for the comment. It is still in the workings and I'll post the finished one.

hennifer: I agree with you that filters can be overused, but mainly by newbies to digital art. Yeah, the clouds don't work and are being reworked to match the rest of the image style. They were a last minute add-on. You know how that can be. I can do a search for those sites on the forum right? I wished there was a way to search only the authors posts and not every input they have ever posted. You look up Vortx and you get every reply he's posted, etc. It would be nice just to see HIS original posts alone. (Only an example)

nt: Thanks alot. It's supposed to be monsoon season. I appreciate your time in looking at it, and the rest of you as well.

RobT: Thanks, I'm glad I didn't get to bombarded with insults on the filter use. It seemed appropriate so I used it. I don't "paint" well in photoshop yet and my tablet is a cheesy one (HyperPen 40.00) What can I say, I have four kids and a sorry job. a wacom will have to wait. Though I did send a hint to Santa about it. I think he laughed a little. I do want to own Painter one day and maybe then I can learn more how to achieve that painted effect. Because I would rather do it myself than use filters.

Bare Bonez: Whoa! You actually saved it as your wallpaper, be much better if you used someone elses. The talent on here is phenomenal. But I'm so glad you liked it that well. That's the nicest response I've had on the forum. Not to sound mushy, but thank you very much. Of course you'll need to replace it with the finished version.

Starseed: I see exactly what you mean, it's all being reworked. The style doesn't flow through the whole piece as it should. And thanks for the compliment. It's that type of encouragement every newcomer needs. Although, I have seen forums where all you get is praise and that's not helpful either.

Pigeon: (Just some thoughts take them or leave them) I take all of them Pigeon, to heart. And yes commercial art is a good exception. I have a degree in Graphic Design and my instructor once told me that while he was working as an artist for a newspaper, that they would use anything to get the elements to stick to the ground for quick processing. (Ah, the old days of cutting out elements and aligning for photographing and plates. No Quarx Express back then.) He said they would use earwax, gum, etc. Anything to get a quick shot of the layout. In that type of environment, anything goes. And maybe I'm still stuck in that mode. My biggest hangup with my art is time. I have always rushed my work, because I get so excited about the finished piece. I think a week is the longest I have ever worked on something. (A huge 24x36 stippling of monks, thousands of dots, got rained on a few months later and ruined.)

Mozeman: (If you could paint it yourself, then why would you use a paint filter?) Why do people use layers to color a comic? Can't they just paint directly on the line art? So in a sense aren't layers a crutch as well? Or is it that they are so commonly used and so much easier that everyone ignores that? I say if you have it, use it. And chances are that if it makes the image look like shit, you are gunna undo it anyway. And if it looks like shit to someone else, who cares, they aren't buying it anyhow. Jackson Pollock's and Mark Rothko's work looks like shit to me, but they are being represented at the Hirshborn Gallery in D.C., so what do I know. And you should agree that most people using filters are amateurs, but we grow out of it for the most part, once we learn the proper techniques. What alot of us newbies could produce on canvas isn't as easy to do digitally, so bare with us and don't be so harsh about it. That was my only point.

u2art: Well, I'm not the first to rant about filters as Eviltoylet pointed out. I love this forum, I'm on here everyday learning new things. It just gets me down and pissy when I see people just..well..being assholes because their mommies bought them a computer and aren't monitoring them. I say this because you never really see someone like Craig, Liquid (where is he btw? haven't heard from him in a bit), cutting someone down about their work, because they are professional about it. They give good honest constructive critisism and leave it at that. I've just seen way too much "Holy shit, Lens Flare Alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Childish, IMHO.

kanabis: Yeah, I addressed layers somewhere above. I use layers all the time. Hell, everyone does. Umm, don't we?

EviLToYLeT: Well, I for one shouldn't be pissing on someone's parade about boring overused style, I'm just getting started in digital. But I've seen the marker/low opacity brushwork here a thousand times over. I've also noticed the same "highlight" effect on just about every image I've come across. But everyone seems to think that is all "Peachy Keen" when used by the vets. And for those of you who have that style, I love the hell out of it and am just jealous I haven't got there yet. And most of those images, make me wanna go back to kindergarten and start all over. So yeah, the "comic" style is being used over and over again, but noone points it out to be boring.

AlieN: You said it... Art is for artist, unless you are commercial. There seems to have always been two schools of art and they have always hated each other. One school believes in total self expression and could give a rat's ass who else likes it. I will call them the "Fine Artists" They have always looked down on the "sell outs", those people who do art for money and are run by "the machine" to do whatever the machine wants. The other school "Graphic Artist", look down on fine artists as those that set in the studio all day, scraping to get by until they sell that next piece and wonder why they don't come over to the business side for more stability. This doesn't apply to everyone of course, I want to be both. I believe my art is mine, if you don't like it, I'll not lose any sleep. But at the same time, I need to eat and so whatever you want, however you want it, just give me the damn job!

Jeesh, the longest post ever I guess. I think next time, I'll just write a freakin book and save posting space for someone who knows what the hell they are talkin about. I truly appreciate the comments and am glad to be a part of this forum. Thanks guys.

[bom]

Word.

[Mozeman]

Rag: "Why do people use layers to color a comic? Can't they just paint directly on the line art? So in a sense aren't layers a crutch as well?"

No. Comparing layers to filters is like comparing a paintbrush to paint-by-numbers. One is a tool, the other is a shortcut/cheat.

[Rinaldo]

Filters R crap.
they look bad, artificial etc.
they require little to no skill.
they are pretty much commercialy unviable as an art style, for the simple reason that anyone can get the same effect as you easily.

I really don't understand what the atraction is, is it that much fun to run a filter over something? seems to me you're dressing up filters with that fun speech. There is not even a thin line connecting the two concepts. Not in any logical sense outside your own subjective mind at least.

I have no problem with what you've done everyone has a play with filters. But they are shit, plain and simple. They have their uses but you would have to admit that if you do some last minute shit job. Then it's not the sort of thing you hang on your wall and brag about to everyone.
you're giving a lot of confused messages here. just jumbling up a whole lotta stuff and hoping that no one notices that they have nothing to do with each other.

I understand that people are pretty harsh about filter use, but that is becase it gives bad results and requires little skill. it's that "instant art" that gives digital a bad name. So yeah, maybe people should lay off bashing this stuff. but that don't mean it's good. no one is stopping anyone from doing anything. if you're having fun then go for it. but don't try and lay a guilt trip on people for saying what they think. and don't try and lable all who aren't keen on filters as a bunch of tight asses who don't enjoy what they're doing. I mean that is just plain stupid.


[This message has been edited by Rinaldo (edited December 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rinaldo (edited December 21, 2000).]