[faustgfx]

taking myself as an example, money is important. it's why one has a job, no? derrrrrr...

it's funny, i could not possibly get any other job than i am now ("graphics designer" [2d, 3d, texture, print, web, bl�r]) 'cause i've not gone to any schools or anything and left elementary school with pretty amusing grades.. i know others who have the same issue. (but then again, art schools still suck.)

it's not cool to be a new media graphics designer these days :\


the only suggestion i can give is stay away from art jobs, they're highly overrated and jakglagjhjkghagjhkg suck ajkag boring hajkhasgk hrr!




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sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

[email protected] /
icq#35983387

[Delusion]

Hey I'm an artist too , I don't know if it counts , but I'm in music , and I make music and I love it , and it's like a dream come true when I finally got one song on the air with a tournament and won 2000$ in 10 minutes I know it's exceptional , but hey let's say I can make it a living to actually make songs and be able to play them on major radio stations , I'll love my job ... but as my parents said ,and I agree , don't go striaght for "Digital Artist" cause you'll probably end up somewhere else =) And as an artist I believe you can get a descent living from it

[DirtyDigger]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trance-R:
This brings up a question I had in mind a long time ago but never got the chance to ask it.
When taking up something you love as a job, do you start hating it? Or like it a bit less than before?
If that's the case then I'd rather do something else for a job and keep art as a hobby.

---

Yes, you do in most cases. I've been both an electronics tech (I at one point loved electronics) and now am a glorified programmer. I still love programming, but for a job you do so many mundane things and stuff you don't particularly want to do that it can almost burn your love of the subject out.

I no longer have time or the want to program stuff on my own at the end of the day because I've spent all my mental energies at work on things to get me some pay.

I also draw and am not good enough to probably ever get a job, I don't think I would want to. Art to me is for myself and my own fun (and hoepfully for others to at least enjoy seeing). I feel that once you start working in a field that you will no longer have the time or the want to actually do stuff for yourself at the end of the day in regards to that field.

Isn't that what it's all about in the long run? Having a job as a means to enjoy yourself when you are not working? And if you pimped out things you like to do during the day you have sort of robbed a little joy from your own personal time. But that's my two cents which in this day and age seems to be worthless.


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"I Hear High Heels!" - DirtyDigger

[Zombie]

I'm not going to get into the "debate" portion of this thread, but I will tell you my personal experience.

I have been doing "art" for a living for the last 6 years. From the time I got out of school, till right now, I have been a professional artist. Meaning I get paid to do "art".

I am not starving, I am not filthy rich. I have worked for everything I have, and I worked damn hard for it. Everytime I switch jobs I get an increase in salary, because of experience and work samples. I'll say it again. Everytime I switch jobs I get an increase. I now make a decent living. It took 6 years but it was worth it.

Am I doing what I want to be doing? No, probably not. Most people I know in games wants to be making films. Anytime I start getting depressed about the job or feeling stagnant I think to myself...If I walk into a bar and tell people what I do for a living, 95% of them will get all excited and say "I wish I could do that!"

I also remind people that work is called work for a reason, it isn't called fun. I do things for fun on my own time.

I make movies and animatins and images for myself at home. If other people like what I do on my own, Great! But I don't care if they do or don't. I do my work for me.

What work I do at the office has to impress my bosses as well as the public that buys the game.

Always look at work done for hire this way. You are hired to do something for a client (at a job like mine, the Art Director is the client), in the end they have the final say. You can argue for your point of view (and I have), but they are paying you and their vision is the one you have to get across.
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mike hovland
3d artist
midway games
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[Frost]

I make 23.6 Gazillions of dollars a minute, yup.

Dr. Bang, this is the sort of question you cannot ask a person ( it's sort of like asking a girl her weight ). What you can ask is what is a decent salary for work. It all depends on someone's abilities and the companies financial situation and benefits which are a tradeoff at times.

[Mozeman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trance-R:
This brings up a question I had in mind a long time ago but never got the chance to ask it.
When taking up something you love as a job, do you start hating it? Or like it a bit less than before?
If that's the case then I'd rather do something else for a job and keep art as a hobby.

---

That's a great question, Trance. In just answering for myself, I say no. I do not get sick of it at all, but I work for myself. I know lots of people who do get sick of it and I remind them just how lucky they are to be working at all in this biz. That's how I feel about it everyday, even when I've been up for 46 hours straight trying to make a deadline.



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Mozeman
Moser Brothers Animation Forum

[plant42]

Asking someone what they make isn't rude unless they're embarrassed about what they're making. I graduated in May, and I started a graphic design/web design/3d job for 55k. It is in NYC, which pays a bit better than elsewhere in the states. I really like the work, especially the variety of print work, Flash, animation, video etc.

Don't think you have to starve to be a 'true' artist. The industry will pay for talent.

My two cents.

plant 42

[McSteed]

I get paid in Moon Pies, Penny Whistles and frequent flyer miles. I have yet to find a way to make cash at this.

Come tax time I send 15% of my Moon Pies into uncle Sam but I hide the Penny Whistles in over seas acounts. The Frequent Flyer Miles are put into an Tax free IRA.



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Chris the Great
www.mcsteed.com

[daz199]

i really need to know if u will have a stable job if u go into 3d, and what kinda money u will make
also if u should go into games, tv, or film?
heeeeelp meeeeeee

[hydrid]

I want to be a Classics teacher at graduate level. Maybe I should learn how to paint togas, eh?

[Ben Barker]

Salve magistra!

That's umm, all I remember from a 4 year classics education. Something about some guy named Trajan, and his huge column too.

[Liquid_Crystal]

?

[hydrid]

Hehe. Yeah, Trajan's column pretty impressive. Hey, I know I'm going into a career that's not going to be making six digits a year, but I like it enough. Same thing with art, I guess.

Vale, Ben

[Dives]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=00000&narrowcode=AR01&geo=the+United+States&jobcode=CM02000023&jobtitle=Cartoonists+and+Animators& image1.x=91&image1.y=20

Here is a ling that shows how much an artist earns. And worrying about what you have to eat in 10 years is not stupid just don't ask about someones salary, ask in general.

[This message has been edited by Dives (edited December 13, 2000).]

[Mozeman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dives:
[URL=http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=00000&narrowcode=AR01&geo=the+United+States&jobcode=CM02000023&jobtitle=Cartoonists+and+Animators& ]http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=00000&narrowcode=AR01&geo=the+United+States&jobcode=CM02000023&jobtitle=Cartoonists+and+Animators&[/UR L] image1.x=91&image1.y=20

Here is a ling that shows how much an artist earns. And worrying about what you have to eat in 10 years is not stupid just don't ask about someones salary, ask in general.

[This message has been edited by Dives (edited December 13, 2000).]

---

Here's what is says right below the graph under the job description:
--------------------------
Cartoonists and Animators
Provide drawings used for publications or animation to amuse audience. No formal experience or training necessary.
--------------------------

What do you think of that? I consider it an insult. But perhaps I'm being overly sensitive.

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Mozeman
Moser Brothers Animation Forum

[Rage-lion]

Since I graduated from CCAD, I had to focus on a "normal" job to pay bills. But now I am finally owning my own comic book company,
drawing and inking...what I LOVE to do, with I subject I grew up on (Voltron). Still have a "normal" job and do the comic book on the side. I think I have put more money into my ART passion, than have gotten out...so far. Hope that changes soon.

[synj]

i consider it insulting too, mr moze. i'm gonna take back my rant because i dont rant. hehe

-synj www.synj.net

[This message has been edited by synj (edited December 13, 2000).]

[Blade]

JESUS CHRISTOS
For one IMHO there is NOTHING wrong with asking someone how much they make. Ok WHO CARES, what is the big deal with asking about someone's salary, are we all going to hell for asking this or is the person going to die if they tell someone. Will it be detremental to their health? will they become terminally ill and die from it no.
What is so morally wrong about asking someone how much they make? I am sure you have told other people more private things than how much money you make at your job.

[Joachim]

cartoonist/animator,
oh, how do they get such stupid statements ?!? Is that what people thinks in general. Well, then it should be the same with actors as well, then they are here to amuse as well and should get the same salary, hehe.

dr.bang, It's impossible to tell how much people get paid in this profession. That varys from country to country, how good you are, your reputation and experience, what you can deliver and how much, what kind of commersial art you choose to do, and so on...-I read the Joe Madureira interview, he said that he often do illustration and commersial marketing work and get much more paid than doing comics though that is much more work, etc....but he still prefer to make his comics-...
An artist (then I mean in the commersial business) can get paid bad, as you can in many professions and you can be lucky and very talented and maybe even get rich. Depends on what you do out of your profession, etc..But, in the opposite of many other professions, I don't think you should enter this profession if easy cash and big money is what drives you....there's easier ways to get rich

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Joachim's Place

[quaternius]

Hi folks,
'been following various threads since about June, but have been too busy to register or really contribute anything. I had to jump in on this one 'cause it's near and dear to my heart as a commercial freelance illustrator.
If you dedicate yourself and get smart about business, you can make a good living. (I'm happy to let others talk about CG animation, game companies, film and TV.)

Buy or borrow a copy of the "Graphic Arts Guild Handbook on Pricing and Ethical Guidelines". (Or go to their site www.gag.org ) They have price-ranges for illustration of various kinds, prices for graphic arts, digital work, animation, etc. These prices are U.S. prices based on current surveys. For marketing and "success stories" of some up-n coming illustrators and artists, get yourself a copy of "Artists and Graphic Designer's Market".

I was told early on that "you can't make a living" at exactly what I'm making a living at now. Because of that I took a painful detour before getting back to what I love to do. If I can save any of you that same detour by encouraging you to do what you love, then "go for it".

How much do we make? Right now I figure my time between $100 - $150 per hour depending on the project. That might sound like a lot, (or not). But there's a lot of hidden expenses when you're a freelancer, including taxes, studio rent, marketing, and down-time, etc. If you have an agent, the hourly, or per piece price better be even higher 'cause they take a nice fat percentage.

Still, I make a decent living. And I enjoy what I do. So you don't have to be a starving artist your whole life. (Just when you start...)

Hopefully, I'll get some time over the holidays to start working on some stuff for the Forum, post some work and get some tutorials going. I'm just switching over to digital this year for my commercial work, since "affordable" computers and large monitors are finally fast enough and big enough both to avoid the brush "lag" I've hated for years, and see the image large enough to satisfy me.

How 'bout some illustration tuts in watercolor, acrylic, goauche, and oils? Anybody still interested in analog art? O.K. I know you are.

'nuff said.



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[marc_taro]

Here's how it worked for me...
The top ten percent of my graduating class are all working in games and making a professional wage competitve with Law, Engineering, Graphic Design or any other profession. (Measuring against others I know in those fields.)

If you work hard and make sure you are in the top percentage of your feild you will make as much money with art as you will in any other job, except those where real talent counts (like brain surgery).

So don't worry about money, worry about your skills and your dedication.

[Awetopsy]

I dunno I guess I just happen to be one of those Lucky people who got a good stable job doing what they love the most.

I get paid decent enough to draw all day. I support myself. I pay my bills and I eat and still have fun. When I started drawing at four yrs old I really coulda cared less about money but now its really cool for a company to give me money for something I love to do...

And believe me Im not one of those guys whos Dad was some rich hotshot who knew somebody that gave me the job. So, yeah the money is important, but doing what you love is more important. Heck I was a chinese food delivery driver then a pro mover for two companies, and a computer tech before I got this job...

My point is, if you just apply yourself You'll get the money you want eventually.



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I think Im wearing out my CTRL-'z'
http://noelsart.cjb.net

[dr . bang]

WOW! I want to thank you guys for the massive replies i received! After reading through all the replies and i'm consider going into engineering..........NOT A FRIGGING CHANCE IN HELL!!!!! ART IS STILL LIFE AND I'M GONNA STICK WITH IT.

[Pigeon]

Quaternius is right on. The GAG guide is an invaluable resource to anyone going into any part of the graphic design trade.

Just as important as how much any of us make I think, is how well we network. I'm a freelance illustrator right now too, but I'm not doing so well because I don't have good leads yet. While Quat charges $100-$150 an hour, my first big gig was $12 per hour. This turned out to be 34 pages of drawings, and about $1200 total, but if I had charged correctly, it would have been a lot more. On the other hand, I may not have gotten that job at all because my clients right now can't budget for good illustration and design. So I end up spending less time than I should on projects, yet more time than I'm really being paid for. My business is slow, but it's because I haven't yet marketed correctly, and my name isn't out there. I'm surviving because my overhead is low, I budget decently, and I sometimes take high-paying gigs through creative temp agencies (usually doing grunt HTML work and a little design, which is annoying)

The same is true for getting a permanent job. The best jobs aren't advertised in the newspaper, or even on Monster.com (has anyone ever found an art job on monster.com?); they circulate by word of mouth. So the more you circulate your name, and the more people you meet through people you know, the better your chances of finding those good jobs and good clients

Or so the theory goes. I'm bad at networking, not art. But I'll get better, and then I can make more money. The ultimate goal is to make enough money that I don't have to worry about money (i.e. not be a budget freak, or worry about destroying my credit rating by missing loan payments, or having to borrow more money etc.) Anyone know someone who needs some illustrations?

P.S. Quaternius - about those analog tuts, sounds like a good idea. We always talk here about having a strong foundation in traditional art and design skills, and I guess that would include traditional media as well. I've been getting back to traditional stuff a lot lately, and it's been eroding my dedication to digital media. It's good to get your hands messy once in a while. And it gives you a fresh perspective on your digital work (and vice versa).

ciao,

Dean

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-Pigeon
http://www.darklight.org/dunakin

[This message has been edited by Pigeon (edited December 14, 2000).]

[Xcal]

Quaternius' reply hit home badly. Somehow, I got discouraged from art when I hit college because I wanted to be 'successful', and the art industry seemed too competitive and without rewards. So I wasted $24,000/year for 2 and a half years studying everything from pre-med, engineering, to business at the University of Michigan, only to quit and waste another couple of years just thinking about what the hell I was going to do.

I sorely regret not following my gut instinct from "fear of failure", because I don't come from a rich family and I wanted to get 'rich' for everyone else' sake. How stupid. I only wish I had a resource like this forum full of well-informed folks in the industry to get the low-down back in 94.

I look at myself now and feel bad that I could have been already working in the industry and probably making a respectable living only if I had stayed on track.

I enrolled in a multimedia program a little more than a year ago and got a permanent job in the design industry within months. Go figgur..

Lesson? If you love art or design (or anything for that matter) and other people manage to have successful careers in it, you have to go for what you love and not let "fear of being unsuccessful" stop you. You'll never get back those years wasted on indecision and doubt, and time is a damn precious thing. Now I just have to catch up on about 5 years of skill-growth in a projected 1 year from now :P